Defensive pistol training questions.

[Guest Jason F.]

I have thought of taking a defensive pistol training class. I think of it as a good idea for someone who carries regularly. My question is does anyone else think the round count and total cost of such a class are getting out of hand?

I regularly see class costs from $400 to $800 a student with round counts from 400 to 1000 rounds of factory loaded ammo required. I seem to see a fair number of classes that require 800 rounds so let's say you carry an XD45 and can find .45 acp for $13 a box of 50. You are looking at another $200 on top of the class cost. If it is not local you add in food, lodging, and travel. You can quickly top $1000 for a two day weekend class.

Now you can make the argument that that is a reasonable cost for one being better trained to defend their family but there are more than a few families out there that simply can not afford that sort of cost.

There simply has to be a way to provide a level 1 type of class aimed and personal defense and hand gun carry that reduces the round count. Possibly through use of dummy guns and dry run scenarios. It seems like many of the classes are aimed at the operator type folks such as LEO, Military, and Private/Corporate Security. I have no illusions that I am going to fight off insurgents on the streets of Iraq but I would like to be better equipped to fight off the crack head trying to carjack me or kick in my front door.

I know there are several trainers on here so maybe you can address the need for such high round counts. I do not question the cost of the class as much simply because I am sure it takes a good bit to bring the product/training to the market with the cost of site usage, insurance, ect. Do you as a trainer see a need for classes with focus on personal defense or is this "operator level" high round count training the only reasonable entry level training you can bring to the market?

[saintsfanbrian]

One of the local ranges around here offers a Street Level fighting with a 500 round count. I don't know but considering I can easily go through 300 rounds in a trip to the range, the extra 200 with training to boot doesn't seem to bad to me. This is something on my agenda soon I hope.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I don't like "bullet wasting."

Every shot has a purpose because "loud noises do not win gunfights."

Having said that, initially C.I.S. tried to get by with 750 rounds.

Dustin and I both felt like we were compromising the quality of the class and bumped it up to 1000.

Consider that an indicator of the amount of material and reps you're getting.

Our Defensive Series classes do not waste time. If you are not lunching, loading, or peeing...you are shooting (I've been to too many classes that have had entirely too much "trunk humping" going on). I would rather you walk away with 100 rounds than be standing around on Day 2 wishing you had more ammo.

Also, our classes are geared towards individuals who seek fighting skill sets. There is no NinjaSealCommando stuff.

"There are no advanced shooting techniques, only advanced applications of the fundamentals." J. Michael Plaxco

The better I get, the more I understand this...

I empathize with the cost of ammo (it hits us all), but there is no way around it. Invest in yourself.

Regards

Edited April 9, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[dunndw]

The classes I have taken (Personal Protection inside the home and outside the home) and an advanced handgun class from "The Range Inc" weren't what I'd think of as an operators class. I think the round count for each of them were around 300 to 500 rounds. My (hopefully) next class will be from CIS; their advanced handgun class. This one has a 1000 round count.

I don't see it as excessive. Sometimes there are "do overs" in a course of fire. The CIS class is a two day class, which I'm guessing is mostly range time. 1000 rounds in two days isn't that much.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I have a somewhat dissenting opinion to a lot of folks.

I can take untrained folks and get very good shooting results in a two day class with 400-500 rounds. In fact I think (my opinion) that beginners really need more work on their grip, draw stroke (FROM CONCEALMENT....HOW THEY ACTUALLY CARRY IT!) and indexing the gun on target than they do on shooting a bunch of rounds.That can all be accomplished dry. They can shoot more later on on their own time. That is called PRACTICE. I'm there to teach them how to do it efficiently and effectively. There is more to shooting well than just making noise. And there is A LOT more to self defense than just shooting.....As Sonny Puzikas says "90% of people spend 90% of their time working on the LAST 10% of the solution".

High round count does not in any way guarantee good results. It might even be counter productive in basic classes.My basic class runs about 400 rounds and I have yet to have anyone tell me they didn't improve any. In fact I regularly take folks who have trouble hitting a 3.5" circle at 5 yards at the beginning of day 1 and have them hitting a 9"x16"(human torso sized) target at 70 yards with regularity on day 2..... How? I use a very refined method to teach the presentation from the holster and sight picture and trigger press and I have them make every round count. I teach them how to see what they need to see. I teach them how to aim the pistol without having to focus on seeing it (which becomes important when people start moving) and how to let their body do what their body WANTS to do under stress and just incorporate the gun into that, not fight nature. With only 2 days, there is a lot that NEEDS to be covered in depth that is more than shooting.It is kind of hard to discuss how to deal with aggressive panhandlers while we are shooting.....

If we are trying to teach a class on improving your match times... fine. Lets crank up the round count because split times matter over the course of 10 stages. But in a fight in the parking lot that will last 3.5 to 5 seconds, split times don't really matter .There is more at play than just shooting fast strings of fire (and more at stake) in a fight and I teach people for that event, not for IDPA or IPSC (even though I can certainly teach that too).

In fact when I look at perspective classes to go take on my own, I view high round count as a NEGATIVE not a positive thing. "Why do they need THAT many rounds to cover what they are teaching" is kind of how I look at it. I say keep the high round count to classes where you are just teaching people to run the gun faster, not for when they are beginning because it serves to make them tired and lose concentration more than give any real marksmanship benefits.

Again, my opinion.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest Jason F.]

One of the local ranges around here offers a Street Level fighting with a 500 round count. I don't know but considering I can easily go through 300 rounds in a trip to the range, the extra 200 with training to boot doesn't seem to bad to me. This is something on my agenda soon I hope.

I just do not go through that much ammo really. I go to the range at least once a month I typically take at least 4 handguns of various caliber. I may only put 20 to 50 rounds through the .45 and 12 to 18 through the revolver. I then shoot a blue million .22 LR rounds but at $12 for 550 rounds that barely even makes me notice the cost.

Also in the past when I did shoot larger volumes of ammo I was shooting reloads. Now that I am rounding up more reloading equipment I may be able to up my visits to the range and my round count.

I can certainly understand why the classes require factory loaded ammunition but it certainly does make it a little more difficult for the poor man to get some training in.

Thanks for the other responses as well Todd and Cruel Hand. I am really torn. I certainly understand and see the need for training and practice. I can see that more rounds can mean more practice if the they are are fired with purpose not just blindly plinking away wasting time and ammo. However at this point if I am spending close to a $1000 on a weekend it better involve a big boat, my wife in a bathing suit, and a tropical rum drink. If it is just me spending bucks on myself I better drag out the sleeping bad and make a pallet on the back deck because that is where I would be sleeping the rest of the month.

I will soon have a nice 9mm in my hot little hands and will probably just start buying a box or two as I can to build up a good supply. That should make the cost a little easier to handle.

[Guest Phantom6]

I pretty much have to agree with Cruel Hand Luke. High round count does not guarantee good results. If the activity is being practiced incorrectly it can actually ingrain poor defensive pistol habbits. We will run only about 400-500 rounds in our advanced pistol classes in 2 days (16 hrs). We do a lot of dry practice in order to get the fundamentals of a particular skill "down pat" prior to live fire whether it be something as seemingly simple as presenting a firearm from concealment, to firing from retention (rock & shoot) to keeping a threat under aimed fire while moving to cover or concealment without falling on your ass.

In a two day class there is no time to fully engrain the proper neuro-musclular pathways in you that you will need to give you the greatest chance to survive a gunfight. That must be done with practice by the student after he or she leaves class. As trainers we can show you the way but the student has to take the time to walk the walk from the date of class forward to make it work. Training is not a destination but rather a journey.

As far as cost is concerned, any trainer that can teach you battle proven techniques that will give you the decided edge in something as decidedly unpleasant as an assault on your life is worth at least $25.00 per hour in a group setting or double that (or more, depending upon the instructor) in private instruction. Do some research and spend the money- or don't. It's your life.

[saintsfanbrian]

That's what I need to remember. Every trip to wal-mart should come home with another 100 round box of ammo for the 9's. At $15 a box it really is worth it. One day I would have a really good supply.

[molonlabetn]

Just about any professional or educational training one can get privately, in any field, will be pretty expensive... Some of the prices I see should probably include the cost of the ammo used, but I don't think the prices are entirely out of line for what I would expect to receive. The problem comes in when, as others have mentioned, the quality/usefulness of the training is questionable, and when the cost of the required materials doubles the cost. If the demand is there, then it's worth what it brings. If class size is an issue, then simply have more classes to move more students through. I'd pay a bit more to be in a smaller class. But I'd only take a class which would teach me a needed skill in an effective manner.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

However at this point if I am spending close to a $1000 on a weekend it better involve a big boat, my wife in a bathing suit, and a tropical rum drink. If it is just me spending bucks on myself I better drag out the sleeping bad and make a pallet on the back deck because that is where I would be sleeping the rest of the month.

Jason,

Using our Defensive Pistol class as a price guide, I'm not really sure how you are arriving at $1000.

2 Day/14 hour class...$200.

Ammo...say $250 if shooting .45ACP?

Food (you live 5-10 min from the facility)...

If you have any interest in training and can get our quality level at a better price (with this kind of convenience), you had better jump on it.

Regards

Edited April 9, 2008 by Todd@CIS

[Guest Jason F.]

Jason,

Using our Defensive Pistol class as a price guide, I'm not really sure how you are arriving at $1000.

2 Day/14 hour class...$200.

Ammo...say $250 if shooting .45ACP?

Food (you live 5-10 min from the facility)...

If you have any interest in training and can get our quality level at a better price (with this kind of convenience), you had better jump on it.

Regards

Oh please do not misunderstand. I was not picking any particular class offering or even really making a point of the class cost itself. It may have gotten off on a little tangent of that but I was specifically attempting to address round count and the rising cost it adds to classes. I stated before and still feel that the cost of the class itself is not out of line even at a higher amount than your offering. I have been part of running high risk events that involve expensive facilities rental and even more expensive insurance sanction fees so I know how quickly the cost of putting a product like a firearms course could add up.

When I threw out the $1000 thing I was just picking some round figures out of some of what I have seen. Your class seems to be a bargain comparatively. I have seen similarly described classes at $400 on up to $800. At those costs the $1000 becomes a good bit more of a reality.

I will be a little bit picky and say I think your cost of .45 is a little optimistic. One of the best prices I can find online for a bulk 1000 round packs is $270 from some place like Georgia Arms. If you buy in smaller quantity the cost goes up form there. If you want to shoot steel case Wolf at $13.25 a box that is $265 and most brass case is running at least $15 a box so that is getting over the $300 mark. i do think I could pull off the $200 mark or just over for 9mm however.

I have no doubt that I could pull off a good class for less than $1000 and if I get the opportunity to take a class I no doubt will be trying to find the best value I can. Realistically I could probably get through one of the CIS classes for around $500.

Again I was really just trying to address round count which you addressed in your first post. I understand your views on it as necessary to really drive home what you teach and keep the class really moving. There were one or two responses from others that take a slightly different stance on the round count issue. That was the sort of discussion I was looking for even if I somehow flubbed it up and got us talking about class costs more than that.

[Marswolf]

The more I hear from this Phantom6 person, the more smart I think he is.

In a two day class there is no time to fully engrain the proper neuro-musclular pathways in you that you will need to give you the greatest chance to survive a gunfight. That must be done with practice by the student after he or she leaves class. As trainers we can show you the way but the student has to take the time to walk the walk from the date of class forward to make it work. Training is not a destination but rather a journey.

This pretty much sums up what I was going to say. Taking a super tactical course for a couple of days and burning a lot of powder may make you think you are super-operator but getting the right procedures and mindset are something that takes longer than that. It takes a while and I find that cramming a bunch of "training" into a short time doesn't work very well.

In addition, very-very few of us who don't do real military type stuff are going to get into a running gunfight on the streets of Kingsport. The money spent on training needs to be for common scenarios that actually happen and that training probably needs to be spoon fed over a period of time. You train, then you reflect, then train some more over time. Gun training schools are a good place to get the basics, and more advanced training later if you really think you need it.

It's awfully easy to get wrapped up in "training" as an expensive social weekend that really has little function.

[Im Neero]

Rangemaster's Level II pistol course costs $150 and uses 200 rounds of jacketed ammo. It is great.

[The Rabbi]

In addition, very-very few of us who don't do real military type stuff are going to get into a running gunfight on the streets of Kingsport. The money spent on training needs to be for common scenarios that actually happen and that training probably needs to be spoon fed over a period of time. You train, then you reflect, then train some more over time. Gun training schools are a good place to get the basics, and more advanced training later if you really think you need it.

It's awfully easy to get wrapped up in "training" as an expensive social weekend that really has little function.

+1.

Actually the really common scenarios aren't that common. And defeating them doesn't require that much training. Check any of the "armed citizens" stories and very few involve people who have spent tons of time and money on expensive training.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The problem though is that The Armed Citizen only reports the WINS not the LOSSES. I have this same discussion about once a year with a guy who says that because X number of people in the NRA magazine were OK with a 5 shot J frame tucked away in their nightstand that you don't really ever even need to practice shooting or even carry a gun in public since most stuff seems to happen at home....... Oddly enough though this guy shells out big money to travel and train every year...why ? So he will be able to handle whatever comes his way........go figure.

Problem is the OVERWHELMINGLY VAST MAJORITY of those NRA Armed citizen stories are about break ins where the citizen has time to retrieve a gun, not about unequal initiative street assault where the bad guy OR GUYS are on you with little prior warning..... THOSE are generally where the good guy (or at least the less bad of the two bad guys) gets killed or really messed up. THOSE are NEVER gonna be in the NRA armed citizen because they do not fit the agenda of the column. Lets be honest the purpose of the column is to show everyday folks prevailing against bad guys. Not to give a balanced view. That would be like expecting the Brady Campaign to End Handgun Violence to publish stories where armed citizens make a difference...common sense here guys.To hear the Armed Citizen tell it no one has EVER been killed or crippled by the BG. Does ANYONE really believe that? Go to a big city (Nashville Memphis Atlanta ) ER on a weekend in the summer look at assualt victims and you tell me who could've used some training........

If you want to base your world view on best case scenarios fine. But I prefer to explore the LIKELY scenarios that do not involve me being at home behind cover with prior warning. So I guess I'm just a freak for wanting to be as well prepared as I can be for the likely scenarios I might face. Aggressive panhandlers being priority #1. Oh, but I guess there is no need for learning how to deal with that since it is so unlikely that someone of unknown intention might approach you on the street? Or carjacking...guess that has NEVER happened to anyone?....or being a patron in a store when a robbery takes place...guess that has NEVER happened?

No, frankly it is just so much easier to sit back and say "well the armed citizen says all I need is a J frame and no training so by goodness I'm not gonna waste my time learning any of that "ninja stuff" like drawing from concealment or weapon retention or any skills that might help me survive a knife attack long enough to make space and get my gun into play...you know, because no one ever gets stabbed....."

It is always easier to not test yourself. To never FAIL. To never step up and see what you are capable of. To never move the bar higher, and become more dangerous to them than they are to you. That requires work, time, and coin. I'm not saying that unless you are an MMA trained, IPSC Grandmaster, powerlifter, blade master with the situational awareness of a CIA field operative that you are gonna die. I'm saying that the better prepared you are the less likely you are to fall victim to criminal assault...how do you prepare? Training.

The biggest benefit that training may give however is CONFIDENCE. And the confident you are the more it shows and that is a good way to get deselected by the bad guys. They work on cost analysis. If you look like you would be a problem they will in all likelihood pass you by. Street crime does not have a very good health benefit plan. They want to get paid, not get hurt or killed or have to go to the hospital and explain how they got the gunshot wound....

Like dogs, bad guys sense fear and sense confidence. Like dogs they'll pounce on the fearful and leave the confident alone. How do you get this confidence? Train to a level that you feel is appropriate for your situation. But do not be fooled. If there is a fight it will be what it will be, not what your preconceived notions were. If you think you don't need to know how to use your hands because you have a gun I sincerely hope you never find yourself in a wrestling match over your gun......If you think there will never be a chance of you having to deal with 2 guys at one time I hope you are right. Me, I'd rather know a little about how to deal with ALL the likely possibilities than to bluster about there being no need to know how to do certain things and then secretly worry about running into that situation later. Much easier if I see that situation developing to say "Yep I've seen THIS before and I access the program that is needed to solve that problem...but hey I guess training is really just a waste of time and money......

Hey what do i know. I'm just a master level IDPA shooter, former bar bouncer, weight lifter who has defended himself from criminal assault.......I'm sure you are right. The NRA armed citizen has a lot more to teach you than any professional instructor.......

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The money spent on training needs to be for common scenarios that actually happen and that training probably needs to be spoon fed over a period of time. You train, then you reflect, then train some more over time. Gun training schools are a good place to get the basics, and more advanced training later if you really think you need it.

That is why I advocate 2 day basic level classes followed up with another more advanced class 6 months to a year later so that the student has time to take the material home and actually PRACTICE it. There IS only so much you can get accomplished in 2 days without wearing them out or giving them so much they don't really "get" any of it. In fact I think that 3 days or more is probably too much for a beginning class unless it is a LOT of repetition of a just small group of core skills. Otherwise you end up trying to pour a gallon of milk in a shot glass. It will only hold so much......

[Daniel]

That's what I need to remember. Every trip to wal-mart should come home with another 100 round box of ammo for the 9's. At $15 a box it really is worth it. One day I would have a really good supply.

wwb was 18.** came out to 20.22 or something today.

[BigPoppa]

+ 1 on (almost) everything Randy just said.

[John Wall]

Failure to Train is Training to Fail.

ANY QUESTIONS?

[The Rabbi]

Yeah. I'd have to take the word of a former bar bouncer over statistics. I retract everything I've written here.

[The Rabbi]

Failure to Train is Training to Fail.

ANY QUESTIONS?

Did you just make that up?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Statistics are useful only when you have ALL the statistics. When Armed Citizen starts reporting people that got killed and crippled resisting then I'll be more amenable to using their data to "PROVE" that.

So you can't refute the argument so you come back with a cute retort about listening to a former bouncer....nice.

And as far as listening to a former bouncer, I at least have a clue as to what a REAL fight looks like. More than can be said for a lot of people.

I guess it might mean more to you if I had mentioned that I have spent the last decade working in the shooting industry. Some people think that is a big deal. It isn't, and in no way relevant to self defense, but people that don't know any better are impressed by it....you'd be surprised at how little some folks that work in gunstores know. Knowing about a gun- a mechanical object- and knowing about the dynamics of interpersonal confrontation are 2 differnt things....... Oh yeah, don't you work in a gunstore?

And I have actually used a gun to defend myself. Again, more than can be said for a lot of people.

I mention the IDPA thing because I know how to shoot at least fairly well...and I know there is A LOT more to personal defense than what goes on at a match....much more than acquiring a sight picture and working a trigger. I've never been or heard of anyone being confronted by stationary cardboard on the street......

People do get killed everyday.A good many of those would probably be better off if they had ever seen a realistic situation in a training environment BEFORE they had to deal with it for real.But I guess your selected statistics don't really show that so it must not be true. Try the Uniform Crime Report from tha FBI sometime. Those statistics are not quite as pretty......

Edited April 10, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[John Wall]

Dear Rabbi

I have a million of them. Like this one? LOL

"Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

[saintsfanbrian]

Hey I own both does that make me an armed musician as opposed to:

Actually a pretty good guitarist.

[TGO David]

Folks, let's keep the discussion to the topic at hand and leave personal barbs out of it. No-armed musicians are ... um ... musicians too.