chances R

tough choice........offer enough 'boot' and get both....problem solved

The last gun I ordered, shipping free, extra mag and holster included. Local transfer $15. (taxes not included)

Nothing wrong with supporting your local gun shop.......but 'rarely' can I buy cheaper locally.

yep, saw the episode. ammo is not a concern.

TMF....got to ask, were you on active duty at the time of the mandatory training session? My point being, if so, is IMO, this is a perfect example of socialized medicine. Making a requirement for the 'subjects'. Who knows where the obamacare mandates will end?

First, according to statistics provided by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, there is an interesting correlation between accidental deaths caused by guns and those caused by doctors. Doctors: (A) There are 700,000 physicians in the U.S. ( Accidental deaths caused by physicians total 120,000 per year. © Accidental death percentage per physician is 0.171. Guns: (A) There are 80 million gun owners in the U.S. ( There are 1,500 accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups. © The percentage of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.0000188. Statistically, then, doctors are 9,000 times more dangerous to the public health than gun owners are. old data, but I bet it hasn't changed much.

obviously junk..........or a well kept secret.....

Charles Krauthammer's view.........hope he is right: June 28, 2012 To all my friends, particularly those conservatives who are despondent over the searing betrayal by Chief Justice John Roberts and the pending demise of our beloved country, I offer this perspective to convey some profound hope and evidence of the Almighty’s hand in the affairs of men in relation to the Supreme Court’s decision on Obamacare. I initially thought we had cause for despondency when I only heard the results of the decision and not the reason or the make-up of the sides. I have now read a large portion of the decision and I believe that it was precisely the result that Scalia, Alito, Thomas, Roberts and even Kennedy wanted and not a defeat for conservatism or the rule of law. I believe the conservatives on the court have run circles around the liberals and demonstrated that the libs are patently unqualified to be on the Supreme Court. Let me explain. First let me assure you that John Roberts is a conservative and he is not dumb, mentally unstable, diabolical, a turncoat, a Souter or even just trying to be too nice. He is a genius along with the members of the Court in the dissent. The more of the decision I read the more remarkable it became. It is not obvious and it requires a passable understanding of Constitutional law but if it is explained anyone can see the beauty of it. The decision was going to be a 5-4 decision no matter what, so the allegation that the decision was a partisan political decision was going to be made by the losing side and their supporters. If the bill was struck down completely with Roberts on the other side there would have been a national and media backlash against conservatives and probably strong motivation for Obama supporters to come out and vote in November. With today’s decision that dynamic is reversed and there is a groundswell of support for Romney and Republicans, even for people who were formerly lukewarm toward Romney before today, additionally Romney raised more than 3 million dollars today. Next, merely striking the law without the support of Democrats and libs would have left the fight over the commerce clause and the “necessary and proper “ clause and the federal government’s role in general festering and heading the wrong way as it has since 1942. As a result of the decision the libs are saying great things about Roberts; how wise, fair and reasonable he is. They would never have said that without this decision even after the Arizona immigration decision on Monday. In the future when Roberts rules conservatively it will be harder for the left and the media to complain about the Robert’s Court’s fairness. That’s why he as Chief Justice went to the other side for this decision not Scalia, Alito, Thomas or Kennedy, all of whom I believe would have been willing to do it. Next let’s look at the decision itself. Thankfully Roberts got to write it as Chief Justice and it is a masterpiece. (As I write this the libs don’t even know what has happened they just think Roberts is great and that they won and we are all going to have free, unlimited healthcare services and we are all going to live happily ever after.) He first emphatically states that Obamacare is unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause saying you cannot make people buy stuff. Then he emphatically states that it is unconstitutional under the “necessary and proper†clause which only applies to “enumerated powers†in the US Constitution. Justices Ginsberg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan all went along with these statements. They never would have gone along with that sentiment if that was the basis for striking the law in total. This is huge because this means that the Court ruled 9-0 that Obamacare was unconstitutional under the Commerce clause which was Obama’s whole defense of the bill. They also ruled 9-0 on the “necessary and proper†clause. Even better both of these rulings were unnecessary to the decision so it is gravy that we got the libs to concede this and it will make it easier to pare away at both theories in the future, which we must do. Well done. Roberts, through very tortured reasoning, goes on to find that the taxing law provides the Constitutionality for the law. Virtually everyone agrees that the Federal government has the power to do this as it does with the mortgage deduction for federal income taxes. This too is huge because Obama assiduously avoided using the term “tax†and now he has to admit this law is a tax and it is on everyone even the poor. That will hurt him hugely in the polls and will help Romney. More importantly though is the fact that this makes this a budgetary issue that can be voted on in the Senate by a mere majority instead of 60 votes needed to stop a filibuster. That means that if the Republicans can gain a majority in the Senate, it can vote to repeal Obamacare in total. Finally the Court voted 7-2 to strike down the punitive rules that take away money from states that do not expand Medicare as required in Obamacare. This too is huge because we got Kagan and Breyer to join this decision and it can easily be applied to many other cases of extortion the Federal government uses to force states to do things they don’t want to. This is also amazing because Obamacare has no severability clause so by striking the Medicaid mandate portion as unconstitutional the whole bill should have been struck. If that happened none of these other benefits would have been accomplished. I haven’t read far enough to know how he did it but I am sure it is brilliant. So to recap the Roberts court through a brilliant tactical maneuver has: strengthened the limitations of the commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause by a unanimous decision, made Obama raise taxes on the poor and middle classes, converted Obamacare into a tax program repealable with 51 votes in the Senate, enhanced Romney’s and Republican’s fundraising and likelihood of being elected in November, weakened federal extortion and got the left to love Roberts and sing his praises all without anyone even noticing. Even Obama is now espousing the rule of law just 2 weeks after violating it with his deportation executive order. That is why I have decided this was a genius decision and that I did in fact get a great birthday present today not to mention U. S. Attorney General Eric Holder being held in contempt. What a day.

Anybody use these routinely? Seems overall quite a bit cheaper than the others. Any thoughts?

Ezoxx is suppose to be one of the best 'clean' products (vs. cosmoline) then put in a gun sock.

Live and learn. I have recently been practicing this method and it makes much more sense. Mr. Murphy is alive and well and if things can go wrong they will, especiallyif the SHTF. I think overall it is faster and takes care of the 'what if the mag doesn't fall free'.

had read somewhere that rifle primers subbing for SPP is not a good idea because they are harder to light which also means they are less 'fluid'. The primer needs to flatten out to form a good seal of the pocket...with harder primers and less flattening, they can leak around the edges, causing a fire engraving of the bolt face. Maybe not a big problem, but still I would avoid it if possible.

Yep.....was the CZ www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=14713.0

I think the SD has been discontinued...and S&W has put out a newer version of the VE. Very good, dependable guns for not a lot of money. If you master the heavy trigger pull, it will make you a better shooter with a gun with better triggers. I've put over a thousand rounds through mine before I got a M&P. If you plan on doing a lot of shooting I would wait until I could buy the M&P. But, if this gun is only going to be a glovebox gun, or sit in the closet, I don't think you can make a better choice.

Both are very good guns with a legion of followers...it is like Ford vs. Chevy. I think S&W has good service, made in America, and as you say 'feel' better. I have a Pro and a standard 4" gun. Got to add the apex kits to make the trigger what it should be. As always, if you can shoot them side by side it would seal the deal one way or the other.

thanks for the replies....I am still learning about this pistol reloading (guess that never stops). The Winchester book did not give barrel length or COL. But since I was in the middle of their data thought I was being plenty safe....the velocities just threw me and made me wonder. Of course the temp was in the mid 80's as well which has a bearing. I was amazed at the SD as well......so I quit early .

124 gr. Montana Gold HP - 5.0gr. WSF - COL 1.130 - Fed Match SPP Gun S&W M&P Pro 5" bbl. (powder measurement verified with bal.beam and digital scale) My Winchester book notes 4.7 to 5.3 velocity 1015 - 1115, 6 shot string Avg.1240, spread 5.83, SD 2.0 1237, 1241, 1239, 1238, 1239,1243 No abnormal cartridge signs. Do I hold what I have or should I lighten up a little bit. Recoil does not seem heavy and accuracy is better than factory RN. Thanks

230 gr RN....that's what they are designed for and cheaper than anything else unless you reload. If the SHTF, grab your shotgun or rifle.

I have a Remington R1 that I like a whole lot better than a Colt CC, 70 series. If I hadn't had it so long I would get rid of it..but just can't. Looking to get a Sig 1911 soon.

I am loading a Delta Precision and Montana Gold 124 gr JHP. This is for range use, IDPA, etc. Also shooting in S&W M&P. I would like to find out what OAL others are using for this bullet. Thanks

Glad you went. More people need to do so. Like you, shot all my life, but until you expose yourself to a formal training program, you just don't know what you don't know. You can repeat the same course every year and still pick up something.

Great memories.....sorry for your loss, but happy for your experiences.......it's all part of growing up, and I don't like it.

AND........if people shot as frequently as they drove, it would be a lot different. In the good ol' days, firearms were a necessity of life. Whether for hunting or protection from critters or two-legged predators, they were an everyday tool. Heck, growing up, it was a rare day I didn't shoot a BBgun, sling-shot, firecrakers or a regular gun in the backyard.....inside the city no less. It is a different world now, and firearms are rare items to most, therefore they have not grown up and learned to use them.....or suffer the consequences of improper use. Most who have taken the HCP class are either a. Unconsciously Incompetent= they don't know what they just don't know. or b. Consciously Incompetent= they realize they have some short-comings but live with it and don't bother to train; they feel they are good enough. Unfortunatelly for some, they don't find that out until it is too late.

S &W Colt Ruger Springfield XD High Standard Remington Taurus

Thanks all. Ordered the DCAEK and RAM from Cheaper Than Dirt. All plus shipping right at $100. With video, believe I can get it fixed up. Will report later.