Crosspost: Is America the next Ancient Rome?

[TGO David]

I saw this elsewhere and thought it was very thought provoking. Perhaps we can get some good discussion out of it here as well...

Copy and paste follows:

Im driving in my car today and Im listening to talk radio and Im hearing about how my state legistlature is wasting time and misspending money and the Mayor of New Orleans is getting probed for the same type of behavior and it just got me thinking. Its such a disgrace and its despicable and its happening at the highest level of our government. There is no other way to put it except that its a joke.

Everything in this world has a life cycle and I believe our country is in the last stages of ours. Just look around. Can anyone look deep inside of themselves and envison a great future. I cant see it. Our social, moral, and intellectual foundations are declining. Who are our nation’s heroes, and what does our selection indicate about the values our people? Today, we admire and pursue gossip on celebrities such as sports stars, singers, actors, and musicians. We admire and emulate them regardless of how corrupt their private lives are. (Perfect example: Crowds of people surround the hospital where a pedophile died and its on just about every channel). Our heroes change as our values do. In the beggining, we admired soldiers, builders, pioneers, and explorers. Then it was businessmen, entrepreneurs, intellectuals and academic figures. The music we hear is riddled with sex and perverse activity and the divorce rate is increasing. We are drowning with millions of illegal aliens and they will probably be made citizens with the stroke of a pen from Mr. O in the years to come only to use more taxpayer money.Our industry is declining with the loss of manufacturing and production base and services, and the exporting of countless American jobs to second and third world countries. Do I need to talk about the financial decline? Taxpayers are paying for underground turtle tunnels. We also have political decline with Obama implementing his facist plans. He wants the government to have control over the health care system. Everything the government tries to take over goes down the ****ter. The Postal Service-Debt, Amtrak-Debt, Medicare and Medicade-Debt, Debt. The dollar is also declining and a communist country holds a good portion of our nation's debt. I also feel like our world influence is declining as well. This is just what I can come up with off the top of my head. Theres more.

The reason I mentioned Rome is because at one time they were on top of the world. They had it all, military, power, wealth and then there was nothing. I also can't keep my mind of that universal principle that we all know: What goes up, must come down. I feel like America was up but we are now going down. I know its hard to think about this because nobody wants to believe it. Its easy to ignore and write off. It really is difficult to swallow, at least for me anyway but thats why I ask. Does anyone else feel like I do?

If not, please try convince me otherwise because I have never wanted to be wrong in all of lmy ife.

[creeky]

My friends and I have talked about the amazing similarities to the two "empires" for quite a while. Even how so called "Blood Sports" like UFC or large event sports are similar to the Gladiator sports in feeding a the hunger of the people as well as a nice diversion from the problems of life.

[Guest 2HOW]

At least some people are finally getting what others have been saying for years. And to answer your question ,YES!!

[canadienmike]

I wish I could find a link to an article I had read a couple of years ago that lists steps that all empires go through and the signs that an empire is coming to an end and it seemed that we were at the tail end of the decline side (stuff like the overall acceptance of moral decay, apathy, dependance of gov't, etc). Scary stuff.

[MikeW]

to answer your question ,YES!!

100% Agree

[Guest HexHead]

Well, aside from the fact that I'm in favor of the tunnel under the busy roadway for the turtles, I agree with the article. Secular-progressives are gaining ground and ripping this country apart. Every fundamental belief this country was founded on is under attack by the left. The change is coming like a freight train, slow yet unstoppable. A bloody civil war could be our only salvation.

[DavidCBaker]

Democracy is not a good form of government...long term. The best form of government would be a benevolent dictatorship run by a real leader with vision and courage and honesty.

Since that's not likely to happen, a democracy takes the power away from government and does what's right.

But slowly, pressed by convenience and laziness and fear, the people give that power back to government as they are sucked in by the promises that government will "fix" everything.

That process is so slow, though, and the promises so appealing, that the only people with the courage to see it like it is are marginalized as fringe thinkers who are nothing more than alarmists. So the slow crawl continues.

This slow movement cannot be reversed save for events so painful, severe, and disruptive that making the hard choices seems better than accepting the way things are.

For that reason, I'm no longer in favor of fighting the little battles. I say, the sooner things get really bad, the better off we'll all be. It's only then that the people as a whole will say "enough" and (hopefully) reverse the cycle.

Let the economy implode, let government make huge mistakes--I don't care. It's the best way to come to our senses, understand again what's at the core of freedom, and why we should fight for it, literally and figuratively.

Yes, I know we're not a democracy but a republic. But that's just technically. We're acting like a democracy, and every significant movement in history has sprung from the minority. Another way to say that is this: the majority are often wrong, and they are in our country. So let them get the country they deserve, and let it happen quickly.

[Falcon1]

Yes. I talk to my students about "bread and circuses" frequently.

[BryanG]

Not sure if this is what canadienmike was speaking of:

From Alexander Tyler. No, he wasn't writing about the United States. This quote is well over one hundred years old. Tyler was writing about the fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Apperently there is some debate over whether or not he made this quote ... I don't really care, because I think its a good quote. Also accurate ... Particularly the portion where how things change when the population realize that they can spend other people's money on themselves.

[Sidewinder]

As I read all of these posts, I'm reminded how far this country has declined since WWll. Politicians have messed up most every conflict we've had since then... Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq (initially), and it continues today.

I too, feel we are loosing our country to the corupt, inept, narcissistic, arrogant people that are supposed to be "public servants". I believe they are "out of control"! They vote themselves 30% pay raises when the rest of us are lucky to get 3-5%. They don't retire under the same system they have mandated for us. I'm told they draw their full pay for the rest of their lives! They don't use the same medical system that we use. Again, I'm told theirs is all paid for at no charge to them... at the Mayo Clinic, I believe. They are treated more like royalty than servants of the people. Their salaries and perks cost us a lot of money. When one of them passes, I'm told his or her pay is passed on to their spouse. What a sweet deal! No wonder they never want to leave. They have become "career" politicians. Senator Fred Thompson, from Tennessee, is one of the few that I know of that did what he said he'd do... he left after two terms!

I believe, with every bit of my mind, body, and soul that we need "TERM LIMITS" on these people, and we need them now! Term limits are imposed on the President, for exactly the reason they should apply to all politicians... from the local dog catcher all the way to Washington. Without term limits, we're toast! That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

Why is common sense so uncommon these days? Tenn. Senator Fred Thompson

[canadienmike]

Not sure if this is what canadienmike was speaking of:

From Alexander Tyler. No, he wasn't writing about the United States. This quote is well over one hundred years old. Tyler was writing about the fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Apperently there is some debate over whether or not he made this quote ... I don't really care, because I think its a good quote. Also accurate ... Particularly the portion where how things change when the population realize that they can spend other people's money on themselves.

Yeah, this was part of it. Another part had to do with the breakdown of the family unit and how in the beginning of a sucessful civilization/empire/whatever word you want to call it, the family unit is the most important aspect and that over time the importance of this decreases and as it does, so does society. Divorce increases, people place a higher value on their 'wants' and won't make the sacrifices to keep family together. It becomes about 'do what feels good now' and the family unit no longer holds that high place in society. Don't know if I'm explaining this all that well but hopefully you know what I'm trying to say

[Metalhead]

Doesn't matter, the world is gonna end in 2012 anyway - which, unless I'm having a brain fart, is the end of the messiah's term.

[Glenn]

Doesn't matter, the world is gonna end in 2012 anyway - which, unless I'm having a brain fart, is the end of the messiah's term.

By then we will probably be ready for it to end.

Glenn

[Volzfan]

At least some people are finally getting what others have been saying for years. And to answer your question ,YES!!

I Agree, 2HOW! The answer is definitely YES!

Now if those people who are getting it will only be very vocal!

[G27]

http://crimsonaudio.net/politics/thegovernment.avi

[poak]

I was following that on M4c the other day...

Short answer is yes...

HOWEVER, I don't believe our gov't is nearly as static as Ancient Rome's was, so while we may be heading that way of the Roman Empire, it's not too late to turn around. Will we turn around?

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't think the question is "Will we turn around?" but "Are there enough people that WANT it to turn around?" It is my belief that the answer to that, simply, is no. There are not.

[poak]

I don't think the question is "Will we turn around?" but "Are there enough people that WANT it to turn around?" It is my belief that the answer to that, simply, is no. There are not.

Good call. Sheeple will remain unrattled and asleep as long as they can still buy fast food, pump their kids full of Ritalin, and buy gas.

[Falcon1]

Good call. Sheeple will remain unrattled and asleep as long as they can still buy fast food, pump their kids full of Ritalin, and buy gas.

All three of which may not be the case if current trends in legislation continue....

[Guest bkelm18]

All three of which may not be the case if current trends in legislation continue....

True, but when that happens, those people wont cry for a change in gov't, they will be crying for more governmental control so that their grilled chicken doesn't run out again.

[hkusp40cal]

There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute or common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.

Life-Line (1939)

Don't ask me why it was top secret, or even restricted; our government has gotten the habit of classifying anything as secret which the all-wise statesmen and bureaucrats decide we are not big enough girls and boys to know, a Mother-Knows-Best-Dear policy. I've read that there used to be a time when a taxpayer could demand the facts on anything and get them. I don't know; it sounds Utopian.

Puppet Masters (1951)

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a "warm body" democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.... [O]nce a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader — the barbarians enter Rome.

To Sail Beyond the Sunset (1987)

The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance.

[Falcon1]

True, but when that happens, those people wont cry for a change in gov't, they will be crying for more governmental control so that their grilled chicken doesn't run out again.

Too true, I fear.

[Guest TurboniumOxide]

<DavidCBaker>

+1

I take it for granted that everyone knows truth when they hear it. There are not two (or many) truths. There is just one. Unfortunately there aren't enough baloney detectors to go around. What we need is a nice federal government collapse. DC needs a little cleaning up. Cali needs to drop off into the ocean ( creating arizona bay ) , and New York City needs to sink unexpectedly. Global Warming may not be such a bad thing after all now that I think of it.

P.S.

"The United States has become a place where entertainers and professional athletes are mistaken for people of importance."

Not to drag this thread off into the weeds, but I just don't get all the weeping over michael jackson either.

Edited June 28, 2009 by TurboniumOxide

[9teeneleven]

I've got a couple of points to add.

1) The past always looks rosier, partly because we didn't live there.

2) The things that are destroying America are either maturing or taking root in other countries too. The tools we use to communicate, i.e. TV and the Internet, are dumbing us down. When Rome collapsed, the civilized world went with it. America was/is the fruition and zenith of the enlightenment (which brought about in large part by the printing press). The idea that we will be replaced by some other power is, I think, misguided. If (big if) we go down, it is not just America that is going down, but the enlightenment ideal that is going down. Greek and Roman culture was facilitated by one thing, the invention of written language, and the ability to communicate, study, and share information. When they went kaput, it wasn't a period of no central power (there was a central power that replaced Rome, it was the church), it was a period of no ideas, or the isolation of ideas (which is possibly just as bad). It took over 1000 years to get out of.

However, in general, I tend to resist the idea that history repeats itself. It might have for the thousands of years prior to the Greek golden age, and Roman empire, but somewhere a few hundred years ago, the game changed, and technology and population (both of which experience exponential growth) started their rapid acceleration. History won't repeat itself, it can't; the world is too different. The dark ages were pretty dark, but you didn't have stuff like billions of people and nuclear weapons back then.

[Guest bkelm18]

I've got a couple of points to add.

1) The past always looks rosier, partly because we didn't live there.

2) The things that are destroying America are either maturing or taking root in other countries too. The tools we use to communicate, i.e. TV and the Internet, are dumbing us down. When Rome collapsed, the civilized world went with it. America was/is the fruition and zenith of the enlightenment (which brought about in large part by the printing press). The idea that we will be replaced by some other power is, I think, misguided. If (big if) we go down, it is not just America that is going down, but the enlightenment ideal that is going down. Greek and Roman culture was facilitated by one thing, the invention of written language, and the ability to communicate, study, and share information. When they went kaput, it wasn't a period of no central power (there was a central power that replaced Rome, it was the church), it was a period of no ideas, or the isolation of ideas (which is possibly just as bad). It took over 1000 years to get out of.

However, in general, I tend to resist the idea that history repeats itself. It might have for the thousands of years prior to the Greek golden age, and Roman empire, but somewhere a few hundred years ago, the game changed, and technology and population (both of which experience exponential growth) started their rapid acceleration. History won't repeat itself, it can't; the world is too different. The dark ages were pretty dark, but you didn't have stuff like billions of people and nuclear weapons back then.

Scifi quote: "All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

Sure the circumstances and current events are different, but the same basic chain of events is the same. If we fall, the world will be much, much worse off. Let's face it, we are the diplomats, the mediators, the "world police" (*cringe* I hate that movie). Without us, who's to stop Russia, China, NK, Iran, Pakistan, and so on from carrying out their agendas? I doubt the remaining free nations would be able to muster much of a resistance. They simply don't have the resources we do. Bit of an extreme point of view, I do agree, but it would be a possibility.