Body Armor

[Turf]

Wanting to know the legalities of buying and selling body armor in Tennessee. Done the usual searches and go the usual jumble of answers. "Yes, it is legal to own but not to sale." "No, it is not legal to own any type of body armor." "Yes it is legal to own and sale but only if it is just 7.62 "black" sapis and not 7.62 AP "green" esapis." "You can own and sell as long as it does not say US on it." Etc. You know how it goes. Does anyone actually know for sure what the actual laws are (being able to show proof would be preferable)? I would appreciate it.

[Guest bkelm18]

You can buy/sell body armor in TN. You're not going to find any laws on it because there aren't any with the exception of wearing it during a crime.

[EMTRN]

Look up TCA 39-17-1323. Unless you are doing something illegal, you can wear a vest. I don't know why anyone would want to wear one. I have to wear one on duty and it is not fun. I can't find anything in my TCA book about selling a vest. I don't believe there are any laws against selling it to someone who can legally own one.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The only law that I am aware of is no felons can own any type of body armor. this is not a state law but a federal law.

Now there might also be some legalities of owning body armor that was never sold commercially. I do know there was some investigations done when there seemed to be a rash of military only armor that hit the market a few years ago. I know I will never buy questionable armor no matter how much of a deal it is.

There are plenty of legal sources for hard armor plates and most are inline with the used military plates. Soft armor is readily available and is quit cheap now. A person can buy brand new 3A soft armor in a MOLLE carrier for $200.

Dolomite

[Turf]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the help. Still have some of the concerns that dolomite expressed. I deal with surplus dealers and/or meet with people off of gun sites similar to tgo from time to time. Just wondering if I come across plates, carriers, helmets, or other gear that was either marked US or known to come from a soldier, if it would be legal for me to buy and if it would be legal for me to sale should I decide on something else. Just trying to do the best I can to remain a law-abiding citizen. I appreciate all the responses so far and would appreciate it if anyone has anything else to offer. Thanks.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Turf

[TMF]

many DOD contractors and companies buy it commercially all the time. I know of contractors that go online and purchase and are reimbursed for the cost, and the stuff they have is level 4 stand alone body armor. I can't imagine there are laws against it if so many people are doing it.

[Hershmeister]

The only law that I am aware of is no felons can own any type of body armor. this is not a state law but a federal law.

Now there might also be some legalities of owning body armor that was never sold commercially. I do know there was some investigations done when there seemed to be a rash of military only armor that hit the market a few years ago. I know I will never buy questionable armor no matter how much of a deal it is.

There are plenty of legal sources for hard armor plates and most are inline with the used military plates. Soft armor is readily available and is quit cheap now. A person can buy brand new 3A soft armor in a MOLLE carrier for $200.

Dolomite

Where are you seeing that deal ?

[TMF]

Where are you seeing that deal ?

Check here:

campellyardsales.com

Go under the "Military Items" for sale. There's so many joes selling off stuff as they get out or PCS.

[bigwakes]

I saw a guy selling surplus at the Nashville show with front and back plates for $200.

[Dolomite_supafly]

US Palm sells brand new 3A soft armor for $200. It includes the carrier. It is only the front panel.

Dolomite

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Have idly wondered about it for some years. Occasionally visit this site for window shopping--

BulletProofME.com Body Armor - Bullet proof Clothing

I don't have a good feel for reality. It can be difficult to tell the difference between frivolous and practical, sheets from shinola.

At the current perceived risk level as long as I stay away from certain streets and don't go out of my way to get in people's faces, then getting in a shootout might be slightly more likely than getting hit by lightning, but by how much? Same deal-- A habit of standing on bald hills during lightning storms would increase the odds of being struck by lightning. Doesn't seem worth the inconvenience to wear a vest for shopping at walmart.

Was thinking about low probability situations. Unless you are a fireman, the only time you really really wish you had a fire extinguisher is when the house catches fire. Home invasions-- Rare, but am guessing that if a home invasion happens then if a feller happened to have armor then he would probably put it on if he had time?

We have an oak coat tree by the door. If there happened to be one of the above-linked bullet-resistant wind breakers hanging on the coat tree, then in certain low-probability scenarios a feller might be happy that it was hanging on the coat tree in easy reach?

Similarly, I dearly hope that civil disorder is vanishingly unlikely, but both short or long periods of disorder are not impossible. Occasions where the odds change enough to make it worth the trouble to put on a bullet resistant wind breaker to go to walmart or even out in the front yard?

Can't recall the year, sometime back early 1970's in Chatt. Can't recall the details except there was some kind of race riots for a few days. Curfew except for people working "essential" jobs. I had a night gig at a psychiatric hospital at the time. For those few days back then, if I had owned a vest, then maybe it wouldn't have been silly paranoid to wear it commuting to work?

But then I wonder, battle armor obvious as a boil on yer forehead might be better/cheaper than that expensive windbreaker thang. Battle armor ought to work just as good hanging on the coat tree for home invasion. Assuming that stuff is quick to put on. Dunno nothin about it.

Similarly, in times of disorder maybe it wouldn't look so weird driving to walmart or cutting grass in battle gear? Things would have to get real weird before it would be common place I suppose. Most likely it would just attract extra attention from both bad guys and the authorities. So perhaps the bullet-resistant windbreaker would be a more practical though possibly frivolous thing to have.

It is difficult to decide whether armor or the bullet-resistant windbreaker "for a rainy day" is embarrasingly silly or maybe on the other hand it ain't a bad idea assuming a feller had the money to spend.

Along the same lines, in the low probability situations where a civilian would wear a vest if he had one, then perhaps the feller would also wear a kevlar helmet if he had one? Maybe even a helmet with a decent flip-down fragmentation shield?

It is difficult to evaluate stuff one has no experience with.

[mav]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would a civilian want to own body armor out side of the coolness aspect? All jokes aside, I can't think of a situation where I might want to or need to wear body armor. While there is nothing wrong with it, I just don't see the practicality to it.

[monkeylizard]

If one believes that a societal collapse is imminent, then storing away some armor is a reasonable thing to do to that person. Same as having gas masks, large food stores, and 20K rounds. And at $200 or so, it's not a very big expense compared to other prep supplies.

Or as Lester said, short periods of localized disorder can create the desire for it too.

[Caster]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would a civilian want to own body armor out side of the coolness aspect? All jokes aside, I can't think of a situation where I might want to or need to wear body armor. While there is nothing wrong with it, I just don't see the practicality to it.

Some people don't think you NEED 30 rounds in a magazine. Some people don't think you NEED a rifle that will shoot through a small block chevrolet.

[mav]

Some people don't think you NEED 30 rounds in a magazine. Some people don't think you NEED a rifle that will shoot through a small block chevrolet.

Thanks, but that totally doesn't answer my question.

If one believes that a societal collapse is imminent, then storing away some armor is a reasonable thing to do to that person. Same as having gas masks, large food stores, and 20K rounds. And at $200 or so, it's not a very big expense compared to other prep supplies.

Or as Lester said, short periods of localized disorder can create the desire for it too.

That is a good point I didn't think of. I had a picture in my mind of some guy walking down the mall wearing body armor.

[Dave Shooter]

Check here:

campellyardsales.com

Go under the "Military Items" for sale. There's so many joes selling off stuff as they get out or PCS.

Mil issued body armor is controlled item and supposed to be turned back in to supply when no longer needed. Not that we don't have a long history of stuff that was supposed to have been turned back in making it's way into the free market.

[MacGyver]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would a civilian want to own body armor out side of the coolness aspect? All jokes aside, I can't think of a situation where I might want to or need to wear body armor. While there is nothing wrong with it, I just don't see the practicality to it.

Mind you, I use my armor professionally on a fairly consistent basis, but wouldn't hesitate to purchase it again for personal use. I see it as a sort of insurance. I can wear my Level III armor under a fitted dress shirt, and the causal observer can't tell that I have it on. I wear mine to the range on a regular basis. We've all seen stupid people at the range. I don't see any reason to die because some fool NDs a round across the range.

Worn inside a carrier, if something goes bump in the night, I can have it on in less than 3 seconds, and have a totally integrated system at my disposal. I have my weapon, light, extra mags (pistol and carbine) and a blow out kit all at the ready. It's pretty dang convenient, and changes the odds a bit. I wouldn't want to take a round in the vest, but I'd much rather catch one in the vest than take one exposed. I've got a family to take care of. I see a vest just the same as I do a weapon. It changes the dynamic of a bad situation more to my favor.

If you're really concerned with personal defense, armor needs to be considered as a concentric layer of defense.

[seez52]

Last time I was at the Creek I saw a number of folks on the line wearing a vest. With some of the off the wall stuff and surplus ammo being lit off by the thousands there's no telling what might misfunction.

[monkeylizard]

I had thought about the range, but not so much the ND. I remember a news article posted here a year or so ago about a guy that was shot at the range intentionally by some guys who wanted his guns. One more reason to buy me some land outside the city.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Body armor does more than just protect you from bullets. It also minimizes other types of impacts. It dissipates any sort of blunt force trauma. We had people who got in wrecks and didn't get hurt because of the armor they were wearing. Even if the armor you are wearing isn't rated for rifle rounds it might stop that rifle bullet after it has passed through glass or a car's body panel. Or after the rifle bullet has ricochetted off of the ground or a brick wall. Just because it is only rated for pistols doesn't mean it won't stop a slower moving rifle bullet. The vest is also a place for you to keep items needed for your first line of defense or medical supplies to keep you alive until you can more substantial medical treatment.

As far as the average person owning body armor I think it is a good idea in the same way a person wears a seatbelt. You hope you never get in a wreck but if it does happen you are glad you had it on. People say that getting hit will ruin your day even with armor on. I am sure it will but a blunt force injury is easier to treat and survive than a piercing injury. Soft armor has been tested and even if it is out of date it is still effective. They can be had relatively cheap if you shop around.

I have spent a lot of time in various types of armor. I will say that finding a comfortable, peoperly fitting setup is key to staying safe. If it is not fitting well or isn't comfortable it will not work properly. Ill fitting armor leaves gaps or doesn't cover the areas it should. Uncomfortable armor means you won't wear it as often as you probably should. I ran into this problem with issued armor, it was often too big and would sag, exposing my upper chest area. Because of this I approached PACA body armor and had them make me a custom setup. It feels great and fits even better. And on the armor they made me I made sure there is plenty of MOLLE so I can have everything I might need readily available. It was expensive but worth every penny when you wear it for hours every day.

This is my take on personal gear. At a bare minimum you need your vest and a bag that you can easily carry.

The gear on your person should be the bare essentials needed to either fight to your bag or survive in place in case you can't make it to your bag. On my vest I also carried 2-3 tourniquets, a blow out kit and a few admin pouches. Also on my person were any communications equipment I needed. This setup should be as light as possible while keeping those items you might need to get to your bag. No need to have your vest weight 80 pounds with stuff that should be in your bag. As far as where to put my bag I considered each 30 round magazine equal to about 10 seconds of travel time to the bag. So when I had 7 magazines on my person my bag was always positioned within a one minute and behind cover.

The contents of the bag is what is used to fight to an even better area or to sustain the fight if you can't leave. Now in the bag I generally had 20 or so more magazines in it. Hopefully these additional mags will get me to the more defensible area or defeat the threat if I can't. I also had plenty of water and food in the bag as well as more medical supplies. The bag also contained other equipment that might be needed like NVG's, smoke, as well as on occassion some frags. It also contained spare batteries.

On my vest I also had additional magazines for my pistol but not my pistol itself. The reason is if my vest is removed I do not want to be without some sort of protection. This is why I almost always had my pistol in a holster on my side. I also made sure one of the admin pouches on my vest and bag was for snack items only. The worst thing you can do is put snacks in with other items you might need to get to in an emergency. Having to dig through muffins to get a tourniquet is never a good thing.

Soft armor is to designed to stop rifle bullets so you need hard plates if that is a likely threat. As far as hard armor there are a couple of ways to go. Either get a level 4 stand alone plate or get what is called a "in conjunction" plate. The stand alone is just as the name implies a plate only. They tend to be really expensive, heavy and cumbersome. The "in conjuction plates" are designed to work with 3A soft armor under the hard plate. The "in conjunction" setup is a lot more managable and comfortable. How it works is the hard plate isn't designed to stop the rifle bullet but supposed to break it up. And the bullet fragments that make it past the plate are then stopped by the soft armor.

I have used steel and ceramic and prefer steel over ceramic for several reasons.

First is durability. It is hard to break steel no matter how rough you treat it. Ceramics on the other hand are as brittle as a dinner plate. That is why most have several layers of various coatings to help absorb shock if they are dropped. And the only way to tell if a ceramic plate is good is by X-ray. This is why I would shy away from any surplus armor because it may be shattered and there is no way to know before buying it. Steel on the other hand you can see if it has issues.

Second is manuverability. Steel is a lot thinner than ceramic. The conjunction steel plates I used were 1/4" thick while the conjuction ceramics were ~3/4" thick. That extra 1.5" makes a huge difference when getting in and out of vehicles or manuvering in tight places. Steel is a little heavier, probably 1 pound extra per plate but the mobility, for me, was more important than weight.

Steel will also take mutiple hits without compromising other parts of the plate. Ceramics tend to shatter after the first shot. There are some that can take multiple hits but they are not as cheap as steel. The only armor that deals with the multi hit problem well is DragonSkin but it is very, very expensive.

The steel in conjuction plates I used overseas would completely stop 5.56 and 7.62x39. They would also stop 308, 7.62x54 and 30-06 if the rounds were not armor piercing. The rounds that would penetrate would hopefully be stopped by the soft armor underneath. I know we shot some plates at point blank (under 10 yards) with 5.56 penetrator rounds and they did nothing to them. I am sure they were something harder than the 1/4" AR 500 steel I have right now.

Just some of my thoughts on armor as well as personal gear. These are MY thoughts and just like most everything else it is a matter of personal choice as to what you like or how you set your gear up. Everyone I worked with had their equipment setup differently with the exception of medical gear. It was always in the same spot for every person. But other than that it was personal preference.

Dolomite

[Guest pfries]

Some people don't think you NEED 30 rounds in a magazine. Some people don't think you NEED a rifle that will shoot through a small block chevrolet.

Don't NEED them, got them...

Heck I even have PFD's from The Navy days... why? Because you never know.

Edited January 31, 2012 by pfries

[TMF]

Mil issued body armor is controlled item and supposed to be turned back in to supply when no longer needed. Not that we don't have a long history of stuff that was supposed to have been turned back in making it's way into the free market.

You'd be surprised how much stuff joe will buy on the open market just to sell off to pay the bills. Mostly that portion of the website looks like a CID wet dream, but I do see military items (to include body armor) that aren't military issue.