Rob Pincus on subcompact 1911s

[mikegideon]

That is probably 95% of the problem He would have known what could and could not be done to shrink it reliably (or figured it out).

Correct. So, it was left up to those hacks at Colt.

[Guest The Highlander]

Rob, thank you for joining and responding to the thread, and welcome to TGO. I have very little experience with the little 1911's, the only one I own is a Springfield EMP in 9mm, which was engineered to work with a smaller cartridge and recoil profile than the .45. Mine is flawless except when firing two-handed from the weak hand. If I don't watch my right-hand grip, I consistently push in the takedown pin and tie up the pistol. I do this with ALL 1911's though, and it is a fault of my grip, not the gun.

Again, welcome to the group, please continue to participate.

The Highlander

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Rob Pincus is not alone with his attitude. That guy from Tactical Response said the same thing, a while back.

Must be something to what he says with his experience. I think they were both trying to help someone caught

in a situation by using a weapon that is shown to be more reliable, from their observations. Useful information

to me.

Thanks, Rob!

[Jonnin]

Rob Pincus is not alone with his attitude. That guy from Tactical Response said the same thing, a while back.

Must be something to what he says with his experience. I think they were both trying to help someone caught

in a situation by using a weapon that is shown to be more reliable, from their observations. Useful information

to me.

Thanks, Rob!

I have heard it from too many to discount it as well. I will get back to you guys on this one when I get that p938. If it jams, I will admit to being wrong. If it works --- then it becomes a brand issue (which I accept: a couple of the smaller 45s have a questionable rep).

[timcalhoun]

I have heard it from too many to discount it as well. I will get back to you guys on this one when I get that p938. If it jams, I will admit to being wrong. If it works --- then it becomes a brand issue (which I accept: a couple of the smaller 45s have a questionable rep).

The P938/238 should not suffer the same gremlins as a micro 1911. It has a lot of features of a 1911 but is not a 1911. The barrel locks up and comes in and out of battery totally different. The extractor is the same but the ejector is not. So, like many 1911s from the factory you could have extractor issues. They are either too tight, too loose, the hook to breach face distance is not correct or the firing pin stop is not fit right and allows the extractor to turn in the tunnel. The failure in Rob's video is almost certainly an extractor issue. I just can't see why the factories allow so many guns to come out like this, but they do.

Notice the angle of the barrel in the sig verses the 1911 when out of battery. (I did not have a micro 1911 in the shop just a 4")

Look at how the different system allows for the barrel to sit lower in the frame and where the rounds are in comparison. Plus a smaller round sits higher in the magazine too. But look at how the bottom of the chamber in the sig is actually below the frame rails and the 45 is above. Look at how far the 45 has to go and the angle it has to negotiate.

[Jonnin]

makes sense. That feed angle is very different indeed. Probably a neverending source of aggravation.

[Moped]

I take Mr. Pincus' word on what he has seen. I've never been a big fan of these little pistols. If you want small AND dependable, get a S&W or Ruger snubbie. One thing I think we've done with the 1911 is make the damn things too tight. The 1911 was designed to be loose and shoot dirty. It had plenty of accuracy for combat, which is all you need in a defensive pistol. I'm still a huge fan of them, though. The 1911 full sized pistol is still one of my favorite firearms!

[Steelharp]

One thing I think we've done with the 1911 is make the damn things too tight. The 1911 was designed to be loose and shoot dirty. It had plenty of accuracy for combat, which is all you need in a defensive pistol.

DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!! We have a winner, folks! "Bullseye" is NOT spelled d-e-f-e-n-s-e.

[Lumber_Jack]

I think Mr Pincus is speaking for his experience and admits his class is extremely harsh environment. I just think if your going to the grocery you're not gonna need a battle tested pistol that can run 200 rounds continuously without failure; hell I only carry 2 mags. But I admit I don't own a 3" 1911 for this very reason. But I do carry a 5" 1911 50% of the time.

[timcalhoun]

One thing I think we've done with the 1911 is make the damn things too tight. The 1911 was designed to be loose and shoot dirty. It had plenty of accuracy for combat, which is all you need in a defensive pistol. I'm still a huge fan of them, though. The 1911 full sized pistol is still one of my favorite firearms!

I will agree that the mil spec was "loose" and designed to take 10 guns apart, throw all the parts in a box shake them up and grab the parts and put 10 pistols together. But in my experience, tight guns run better than loose guns if built right. The problem is, as the pistol gets tighter the importance of a perfect fit gets more and more crucial. Factory guns fail at this miserably.

[HOLEPUNCHER]

Hey Rob, Do you see the same problems with the 9mms,? And Welcome.

[Guest Rob Pincus]

Holepuncher, Thanks, I had a micro 9mm do well in a class once.. then it started choking the next time it showed up.

GreginTenn, Not sure what you mean in regard to the S&W Revolvers... they are incredibly reliable.... ?

In regard to the Single-Action-Single-Stacks that are NOT actually "1911's" there are a few out there that have promise.. In fact, have a S&W 945 that has been an awesome performer for over a decade!

[peejman]

The P938/238 should not suffer the same gremlins as a micro 1911. It has a lot of features of a 1911 but is not a 1911. ....

Excellent pics and descriptions of the issues, thanks!

[mikegideon]

So, like many 1911s from the factory you could have extractor issues. They are either too tight, too loose, the hook to breach face distance is not correct or the firing pin stop is not fit right and allows the extractor to turn in the tunnel. The failure in Rob's video is almost certainly an extractor issue. I just can't see why the factories allow so many guns to come out like this, but they do.

THIS is a major point. I bought my short 1911 with full knowledge of their finicky nature. That included the possibility of having to fit a new extractor. You were the first guy that came to mind. In fact, there's an Ed brown extractor and firing pin stop sitting in my wish list at Midway.

I bought a Glock 36 yesterday. Same basic size. It will be interesting to compare the two.

[Hardscrabble]

This is a topic I have done a bunch of research on lately. I have a semi permanent headache from it, because it is so hard to sift through the information. Almost all the folks that publish magazines are very reluctant to say anything bad about a product. Much, if not most, of posted comments are either loyal owners in love with a piece of metal or a dissatisfied customer bashing heck out of a company for a firearm that failed to do what was advertised. There is very little input from folks like Rob, who gets to observe more gunfire than almost any of us, and should have an informed opinion based on actual successes and failures. We should listen because for most of us the darn sample size is too small to form reliable opinions on any pistol. At the same time, every one of us has to make many important decisions regarding what, when, where, how and even if to carry a handgun for protection. Some make this decision pretty lightly and get on with it. Others, like me, want as much information as we can get so we can make an unbiased decision based on facts.

In spite of my good intentions, I have always been extremely biased towards 1911's. I trained on them in the Marines. I collected US marked pistols for many years. I often carry a 1911, when I carry at all. The last course I took (which was years ago) the instructor warned me about the complexity of use (that darned safety) and the failure rate (mine didn't, but I've sure seen them fail before) and let me run part of the course with his Glock. I listened, bought a G22, G23 and a G27 and carried them for several years. They are all gone now. I let my personal bias get in the way and I stopped shooting them, then stopped carrying them, then sold them. That was a dumb, biased decision. There is no doubt in my mind: even though I shoot a couple thousand rounds of 45acp a year, I'd be better off in a fight with a Glock, or some other more reliable striker-fired pistol. Note: I'd be much, much better off with a high capacity pump shotgun, if that happened to be an option. That is my unbiased opinion.

Recently, I started looking for a sub compact "pocket pistol". I don't like carrying a pistol. No matter what it is, it's in the way more often than it's not (and a 1911 is the worst of the bunch). The Glock 27 was close: a great little pistol, but it wouldn't really fit in my pocket. I wanted something small, light and at least a 38 or 9MM. So I started doing the research, and ended up with a Kahr CM9. They get high marks from their owners on the internet. They appear to be a good design (very much a Glock design). I actually like the trigger, and I shoot the thing well. It is very close to being comfortable in my front pocket, inside a pocket holster. The only problem is that the pistol didn't run right and as it turns out, lots of them don't. I should have googled "kahr problems"...not "kahr reviews"...they have a very loyal fan base. Just got it back from the factory, and I haven't re-tested. It's going to have to fly like a bird for me to trust it now, though...I'm thinking 500 rounds of different ammo types without a misfire or FTF before I even think about putting it in my pocket.

I am close to forming an opinion that there are no pistols that are going to meet all my needs. (Which are simple: reliable, pocket sized, striker fired, at least 9mm.) I may have to consciously make the decision that I am better off with an imperfect pistol in my pocket that might not be as reliable as a Glock, and that I won't shoot nearly as well as I shoot a 1911, but at least it will be in my pocket and not at home in the safe because I don't like to wear a holster. As an aside, it looks to me like there are lots and lots of small carrying pistols hitting the market, and it looks like all of them have a bug or two that the makers are working their way through. I'm hopeful that one of these will rise to the top in the next year or two.

The other decision I've recently made, for what it's worth, is that I'm going to replace my ready home defense handgun with a 12ga. loaded with buckshot, and I'm going to find and take a shotgun course. I don't have to try to put my home defense weapon on my hip, so there really is no reason to compromise.

[timcalhoun]

Excellent pics and descriptions of the issues, thanks!

My pleasure! :-)

THIS is a major point. I bought my short 1911 with full knowledge of their finicky nature. That included the possibility of having to fit a new extractor. You were the first guy that came to mind. In fact, there's an Ed brown extractor and firing pin stop sitting in my wish list at Midway.

I bought a Glock 36 yesterday. Same basic size. It will be interesting to compare the two.

Yep, the extractor can be a problem and is responsible for the majority of running problems I see in all sizes. I have replaced some that I swear were not even tempered, and from popular manufacturers no less.

I recommend and install aftec extractors in almost 100% of the guns I build. Really helps with higher pressure rounds like the 9 and 40. If installed right they are really a "set it and forget it" fix to the problem. The 45 does not nearly have the pressure, so I don't hesitate to use a traditional extractor and am happy to fit any quality extractor like EGW or Ed Brown etc..., but really insist upon the aftec for the high pressure stuff.

Congrats on the 36 BTW!!! It's always a good day when you can buy a new toy!!

[timcalhoun]

This is a topic I have done a bunch of research on lately. I have a semi permanent headache from it, because it is so hard to sift through the information. Almost all the folks that publish magazines are very reluctant to say anything bad about a product. Much, if not most, of posted comments are either loyal owners in love with a piece of metal or a dissatisfied customer bashing heck out of a company for a firearm that failed to do what was advertised. There is very little input from folks like Rob, who gets to observe more gunfire than almost any of us, and should have an informed opinion based on actual successes and failures. We should listen because for most of us the darn sample size is too small to form reliable opinions on any pistol. At the same time, every one of us has to make many important decisions regarding what, when, where, how and even if to carry a handgun for protection. Some make this decision pretty lightly and get on with it. Others, like me, want as much information as we can get so we can make an unbiased decision based on facts.

In spite of my good intentions, I have always been extremely biased towards 1911's. I trained on them in the Marines. I collected US marked pistols for many years. I often carry a 1911, when I carry at all. The last course I took (which was years ago) the instructor warned me about the complexity of use (that darned safety) and the failure rate (mine didn't, but I've sure seen them fail before) and let me run part of the course with his Glock. I listened, bought a G22, G23 and a G27 and carried them for several years. They are all gone now. I let my personal bias get in the way and I stopped shooting them, then stopped carrying them, then sold them. That was a dumb, biased decision. There is no doubt in my mind: even though I shoot a couple thousand rounds of 45acp a year, I'd be better off in a fight with a Glock, or some other more reliable striker-fired pistol. Note: I'd be much, much better off with a high capacity pump shotgun, if that happened to be an option. That is my unbiased opinion.

Recently, I started looking for a sub compact "pocket pistol". I don't like carrying a pistol. No matter what it is, it's in the way more often than it's not (and a 1911 is the worst of the bunch). The Glock 27 was close: a great little pistol, but it wouldn't really fit in my pocket. I wanted something small, light and at least a 38 or 9MM. So I started doing the research, and ended up with a Kahr CM9. They get high marks from their owners on the internet. They appear to be a good design (very much a Glock design). I actually like the trigger, and I shoot the thing well. It is very close to being comfortable in my front pocket, inside a pocket holster. The only problem is that the pistol didn't run right and as it turns out, lots of them don't. I should have googled "kahr problems"...not "kahr reviews"...they have a very loyal fan base. Just got it back from the factory, and I haven't re-tested. It's going to have to fly like a bird for me to trust it now, though...I'm thinking 500 rounds of different ammo types without a misfire or FTF before I even think about putting it in my pocket.

I am close to forming an opinion that there are no pistols that are going to meet all my needs. (Which are simple: reliable, pocket sized, striker fired, at least 9mm.) I may have to consciously make the decision that I am better off with an imperfect pistol in my pocket that might not be as reliable as a Glock, and that I won't shoot nearly as well as I shoot a 1911, but at least it will be in my pocket and not at home in the safe because I don't like to wear a holster. As an aside, it looks to me like there are lots and lots of small carrying pistols hitting the market, and it looks like all of them have a bug or two that the makers are working their way through. I'm hopeful that one of these will rise to the top in the next year or two.

The other decision I've recently made, for what it's worth, is that I'm going to replace my ready home defense handgun with a 12ga. loaded with buckshot, and I'm going to find and take a shotgun course. I don't have to try to put my home defense weapon on my hip, so there really is no reason to compromise.

Well, it's hard to beat a nice revolver pocket pistol. Heck you don't even need to take it ouf of your coat pocket to shoot and it will run 100% LOL

[mikegideon]

My pleasure! :-)

Yep, the extractor can be a problem and is responsible for the majority of running problems I see in all sizes. I have replaced some that I swear were not even tempered, and from popular manufacturers no less.

I recommend and install aftec extractors in almost 100% of the guns I build. Really helps with higher pressure rounds like the 9 and 40. If installed right they are really a "set it and forget it" fix to the problem. The 45 does not nearly have the pressure, so I don't hesitate to use a traditional extractor and am happy to fit any quality extractor like EGW or Ed Brown etc..., but really insist upon the aftec for the high pressure stuff.

Congrats on the 36 BTW!!! It's always a good day when you can buy a new toy!!

I had no intention to buy a new toy. Something just came over me. Besides, I'm going to need something to shoot all this .45 I'm fixin' to start loading, since my 1911's don't work .

Seriously, if this shortie needs a new extractor, I'll be tracking you down. I already bought a Wolff recoil spring cal kit. Slide to frame fit is great for a factory gun. Ramps and chamber are smooth as a baby's butt.

[Steelharp]

I am close to forming an opinion that there are no pistols that are going to meet all my needs. (Which are simple: reliable, pocket sized, striker fired, at least 9mm.)

Because you included "striker:" Walther PPS.

Or, a hammerless snub, like an LCR.

[mikegideon]

Tough crowd in this thread

[mikegideon]

Just read up on the Aftec extractor. JMB had almost and obsession with leaf springs. I have an old (100ish) shotgun he designed, and everything was leaf springs except for maybe the safety detent.

The Aftec looks like a real solution in today's world. I'll probably pop for one of them just because it's a permanent long term fix. Pricey, but worth it to me.

[Jonnin]

I am close to forming an opinion that there are no pistols that are going to meet all my needs. (Which are simple: reliable, pocket sized, striker fired, at least 9mm.)

Well, if you like the khar, take a look at the beretta nano. It is a simple DAO striker fired pocket pistol in 9mm. I have yet to have mine jam, had it since right after they came out. It eats everything so far, which mostly means my handloads or cheap bulk junk, though I shot a few critical defense thru it to test it and some year before obama hornady ammo that I got back when.

I hate the long DAO trigger on it. I like its simple design, easy to use mag release (which reversed and made a 100% left hand gun for me). I kept it because its my best left hand gun, one of the few I can work 100% with my strong hand. I am sorely tempted to reduce the trigger pull with some bubbasmithing, but have not worked up the nerve. I disabled the drop safety finger pincher at least, I hate those dumb things. It would burn up in re-entry before it could fall far enough to pull that trigger via momentum.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Jonnin

[wjh2657]

During my 30 year USMC career I was a member, several times, of the base pistol/rifle teams. After one successful season, the base commander sent us to GUNSITE as a reward. I took a Series 80 Colt Commander and a Series 80 Colt Officers Model as my weapons. I had numerous Feed and Eject problems with the Officers Model, mainly due to the slide recoil cycle( short stroke). I ended up using the Commander (the consumate self defense 1911 in my opinion) most of the time. When I had an opportunity to attend the Senior (Advanced) course I just took the Commander. The experience was limited, but the OM had been well broken in (excess of 500 rounds) but the Officers model just didn't perform any where as well as the Commander. Several trips to the gunsmith and factory with numerous polishings, etc. did not solve the problem. I have always believed that it was an ammo issue and that the little gun was ammo picky more than an overall design defect. If I had the patience and had worked more with matching the pistol and ammo, I believe I eventually would have come up with a reliable combination. I love Colts but I didn't really want a gun that only worked with one brand and ballistic mix in ammo. If they quit making or modified the ammo, the gun would then have been useless. I sold it to somebody else. My brother has the Commander and still carries it every day.

I carry S&W revolvers, ammo isn't really an issue!

[Guest bulluck533]

Out of all the 3 inch 1911's I have shot I have never had one jam on me. Great guns no matter what the size.

[ted]

I think all guns will have some type of problem and I know that I have a 40 emp 3" that did the same thing as this guy said but it was new and tight after about 800 rounds though the break in period it has shot flawless heak I even loaded it up for a long term shooting test shot 500 rounds fast as I could with out the first hiccup it's been a good gun . Thin there is my kimber 3" out of the box have not had the first problem what so ever broke it in with the 800 rounds then went at it 500 rounds fast as I could shoot the dad blame thing not the first jam . There are a lot of factors here are thease 3" guns new when thease students are taking the class and have not been broken in .? Is the student familiar with the pistol enough that he is not limp risting it? Or could it be with so mutch pressure on him learning the class that he is not nurviss maybe a little shakey , yes 1911 pistols can have problems most of the time it is the extractor that is the problem . And has the gun been oiled correctly . I have had alot of guns I have had to send back to the factory to have fixed like a glock a s&w m&p 40 even a sig etc. but I think alot of it has to do with the production line and how fast Thay are putting the gun through the line all parts are not made equal and Thay do not mike every part before it is shipped out to your local gun store , so some guns may be fitted better than others, and yes I have seen alot of 1911s with problems ,but yes I have seen alot of problems in other 3" guns also . I guess it jest depends on if you get a good one or not that's what it boils down to . But then I do not think I'm going to be toting around 500 rounds with me jest two 7 round clips

Edited May 12, 2012 by ted