I had no idea (caution gay thread)

[Oh Shoot]

Help me please, if as some say being gay is normal for them or they were born that way then what about all the ex gays that are no longer living the gay lifestyle and are now living the hetro lifestyle. Did they change, we're they living a lie, are they still gay and living a lie now? There are organizations out there that have helped thousands of people leave the gay lifestyle. How can this be?

Sexuality isn't always either/or. Lots of bi folks. Lots of men and women who even had kids in a hetero relationship that later went all gay, or other way around. The ole in-out in-out is just one of the many complexities and paradoxes of the species.

- OS

[45guy]

Sexuality isn't always either/or. Lots of bi folks. Lots of men and women who even had kids in a hetero relationship that later went all gay, or other way around. The ole in-out in-out is just one of the many complexities and paradoxes of the species.

- OS

Then it would appear to be more of a lifstyle choice than the way they they were born.

[Jonnin]

Help me please, if as some say being gay is normal for them or they were born that way then what about all the ex gays that are no longer living the gay lifestyle and are now living the hetro lifestyle. Did they change, we're they living a lie, are they still gay and living a lie now? There are organizations out there that have helped thousands of people leave the gay lifestyle. How can this be?

Not long ago (actually, still quasi in practice when I was of age) teachers would (beat, belittle, harrass, etc) left handed kids until they finally learned to write with their wrong hand. Did those kids stop being left handed? No, but you can force yourself or be forced by others into doing something that is not in your makeup.

I cannot say what happens in whatever case. Some men give up women (or men?) altogether (monks, etc) --- by putting their faith over their desires. Some teenagers that are faithful also abstain until married, not many, but some do manage it. I would say the answer is all three: some folks wake up one day and decide they are gay (changed?) and realize they maybe always have been. Some wake up and decide they are really straight. Some live the lie (in the closet) to fit in because of all the pressure and stigma that comes with being gay. Some live the lie because they lie to themself, convinced that being gay is bad (faith, upbringing, social stigma, etc) and then finally give up on trying to please others instead of living their own life.

Some people just like sex and do not care who or what they put it in, to be blunt. We used to call them trysexuals, they will try anything....

the answer to this one is going to be on a case by case basis.

[Oh Shoot]

Then it would appear to be more of a lifstyle choice than the way they they were born.

Not for me to say. Doesn't matter to me whether it's nature or nurture, choice or compulsion, or combined impetus.

I've always liked Neal Boortz's quote, that when faced with complicated issues, "I always default to freedom".

- OS

[45guy]

Not for me to say. Doesn't matter to me whether it's nature or nurture, choice or compulsion, or combined impetus.

I've always liked Neal Boortz's quote, that when faced with complicated issues, "I always default to freedom".

- OS

A person cannot help the way they were born, being born a man or a woman or being born black or white. If I have no choice about "being right or left handed" is a big difference than choosing a certain lifestyle. You certainly have the freedom to make that choice but do not blame it on genetics as most do.

[Jonnin]

A person cannot help the way they were born, being born a man or a woman or being born black or white. If I have no choice about "being right or left handed" is a big difference than choosing a certain lifestyle. You certainly have the freedom to make that choice but do not blame it on genetics as most do.

You are trying to convince me that my cousin who most of the family suspected was and would be gay made a lifestyle choice about his gender identity before he knew his unit was for any purpose other than taking a whizz? I don't buy it, the boy was girly from the age of 3 or 4 on. It may not be genetics (that makes no sense, the gene would self destruct via lack of reproduction) but something was wired for gay in him from the time he was born. His homeschooling and upbringing, he probably did not even know what gay was until he was 10 or more, and probably never thought about it as his own identity until older still. There was no choice made. I have seen this happen a couple of times. I have seen the other way too, where someone did make a decision or was convinced or seduced. One girl I knew in HS was seduced by a lesbian, and ended up deciding that was what she wanted to do or be, but I am pretty sure she at least thought she was straight before that, pretty sure she dated a couple of guys before.

Again, its not something one can find a "root cause" for as each person gets there (their own gender ID) in their own time, in their own way, with many factors from environment to genetics to psychobabble. But I am 100% convinced that at least some % of the homosexual community had no choice, they were indeed born that way (whatever the cause, again, genetics dont make sense).

[Oh Shoot]

A person cannot help the way they were born, being born a man or a woman or being born black or white. If I have no choice about "being right or left handed" is a big difference than choosing a certain lifestyle. You certainly have the freedom to make that choice but do not blame it on genetics as most do.

As I said, what makes consenting adults horny doesn't matter to me, not part of the argument one way or the other.

The issue is same sex "marriage". Since marriage is not only a contract between two people but also a contract between those two people and The State, any two people should be able to enter into it.

The contract with the state is actually much stronger, as the couple can negate it, but The State can't.

- OS

[45guy]

You are trying to convince me that my cousin who most of the family suspected was and would be gay made a lifestyle choice about his gender identity before he knew his unit was for any purpose other than taking a whizz? I don't buy it, the boy was girly from the age of 3 or 4 on. It may not be genetics (that makes no sense, the gene would self destruct via lack of reproduction) but something was wired for gay in him from the time he was born. His homeschooling and upbringing, he probably did not even know what gay was until he was 10 or more, and probably never thought about it as his own identity until older still. There was no choice made. I have seen this happen a couple of times. I have seen the other way too, where someone did make a decision or was convinced or seduced. One girl I knew in HS was seduced by a lesbian, and ended up deciding that was what she wanted to do or be, but I am pretty sure she at least thought she was straight before that, pretty sure she dated a couple of guys before.

Again, its not something one can find a "root cause" for as each person gets there (their own gender ID) in their own time, in their own way, with many factors from environment to genetics to psychobabble. But I am 100% convinced that at least some % of the homosexual community had no choice, they were indeed born that way (whatever the cause, again, genetics dont make sense).

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have met guys before that seemed like they would be gay that turned out not to be, girly as you said. I have also met manly men that turned out to be gay so making that determination by the way one acts does not seem to be a good way to determine things.

[Mike.357]

who are all these reformed gay people?

[bubbiesdad]

Nope. That's Fox News talking right there.

People are actually much more complex than the television would have you believe.

I don't believe in gun control but I think all Americans should have the same pool of rights. I don't believe in affirmative action but I think the "rich" should be held to the same tax laws that the rest of us are.

Are my ideas infallible? Nope. But I can tell you that they don't fit neatly into one side of our two-party system.

If pushed, I would fight for the rights of any group so don't pigeon hole me, or we'll have words

Progressives feel differently on this matter. They feel the rich should be held to a higher standard/tax rate.

[bubbiesdad]

As I said, what makes consenting adults horny doesn't matter to me, not part of the argument one way or the other.

The issue is same sex "marriage". Since marriage is not only a contract between two people but also a contract between those two people and The State, any two people should be able to enter into it.

The contract with the state is actually much stronger, as the couple can negate it, but The State can't.

- OS

As Richard Pryor once said, "I don't care if you want to have sex with a goat, just don't do it on my front porch".

[TMF]

I've always liked Neal Boortz's quote, that when faced with complicated issues, "I always default to freedom".

Yup.

[bubbiesdad]

You are trying to convince me that my cousin who most of the family suspected was and would be gay made a lifestyle choice about his gender identity before he knew his unit was for any purpose other than taking a whizz? I don't buy it, the boy was girly from the age of 3 or 4 on. It may not be genetics (that makes no sense, the gene would self destruct via lack of reproduction) but something was wired for gay in him from the time he was born. His homeschooling and upbringing, he probably did not even know what gay was until he was 10 or more, and probably never thought about it as his own identity until older still. There was no choice made. I have seen this happen a couple of times. I have seen the other way too, where someone did make a decision or was convinced or seduced. One girl I knew in HS was seduced by a lesbian, and ended up deciding that was what she wanted to do or be, but I am pretty sure she at least thought she was straight before that, pretty sure she dated a couple of guys before.

Again, its not something one can find a "root cause" for as each person gets there (their own gender ID) in their own time, in their own way, with many factors from environment to genetics to psychobabble. But I am 100% convinced that at least some % of the homosexual community had no choice, they were indeed born that way (whatever the cause, again, genetics dont make sense).

There are women, externally, with testes inside where their ovaries are supposed to be. So that would probably play a factor.

[45guy]

who are all these reformed gay people?

Google it

[Mike.357]

you made the claim, back it up.

[45guy]

you made the claim, back it up.

You want to know look it up.

[Chucktshoes]

The generally accepted standard in a debate/discussion is that it is incumbent upon the maker of a contested claim to back said claim up. Otherwise I could make the claim that you are functionally retarded and then demand that you provide certified IQ scores to disprove my assertion.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, I looked, instead of just calling names.

I saw several claims of reformation and saw rebuttals to other claims, but admittedly did not do any kind of in-depth search.

Several are dead set in their opinion about gays as far as I can see, and that's fine with me, but the truth is somewhere other than gut feelings on this subject. As I said earlier, we have been bombarded by the media, one gay story after another without any kind of proof of how gays came to exist or whether or not it is natural or borne that way or whatever else you wish to characterize a gay. But I really don't care about all that. Is there any factual evidence, one way or another? I don't know, but is that the issue? I know there are situations where one is effeminate and others just realize something isn't right and end up gay or whatever,

but I think there has been a lot of dumping on to a situation that is not nearly as big as it is portrayed

in the media, also.

I see the issue for several of you to use it as a means to slap religion around more than I see genuine concern for a gay's plight, though. I share Smith's attitude about this topic and consider it as a sexual lifestyle. I also see it as a mechanism to divide society with this "marriage" issue. When the church actually loves the sinner and tries to do something about the sin, it must raise a million red flags.

It was interesting enough before gays started wanting to get married, which seemed almost to spring up over night and has evidently caught on like wildfire. Hey! Anything goes.

And I thought this thread was dying, too.

Edited September 6, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[45guy]

The generally accepted standard in a debate/discussion is that it is incumbent upon the maker of a contested claim to back said claim up. Otherwise I could make the claim that you are functionally retarded and then demand that you provide certified IQ scores to disprove my assertion.

If I told you there are some larger Churches that offer not only services that help people that want to get out of a gay lifestyle but also help with other issues like sex addiction, drug addiction and devorce recovery how much info do I need to supply to reach the "accepted standard". Do you want the names of the Churches, leadership of the ministry? What could I tell you that would make you believe me. If I read something I do not know if it is true or not, then I research it myself before running my month about it. I would perfer you not to take my word for it, find out for yourself.

[Garufa]

My limited experience with gay people is if that they are serious enough "to be bonded in civil union" they are way past "curing".

Edited September 6, 2012 by Garufa

[BigK]

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have met guys before that seemed like they would be gay that turned out not to be, girly as you said. I have also met manly men that turned out to be gay so making that determination by the way one acts does not seem to be a good way to determine things.

+1 Agreed

I know about the same number of effeminite guys that are straight, married, with kids as I do that are gay. On the other hand, almost every "butch" chick I've ever met was gay. So, sometimes judging a book by it's cover will save you the trouble of reading it, the rest of the time you get kicked out of book club.

[Oh Shoot]

The "why people are gay" is amazingly the first off topic part of this whole discussion.

They exist, therefore they want the option of the marriage contract.

- OS

[Mike.357]

You want to know look it up.

Nice, good way to prove your point. Seriously this is one of them times when LOL actually happened.

[Il Duce]

How is this still open?

[45guy]

Nice, good way to prove your point. Seriously this is one of them times when LOL actually happened.

I was not trying to prove anything, believe or do not believe what you want.