Wilson? Nighthawk? what's the big deal?

[nightrunner]

If you put a pistol in a ransom rest or a rifle in a sled; where’s the skill?

that is what i dont understand, there are guys that go to my local range and bolt their rifle in the vice/rest and go for 5-shot groups, week after week, so i know its not just sighting in their rifle. really seems pointless to me. and even moreso with a pistol, why?

[Kano]

if your ever near knoxville lemme know and you can shoot it.

Thanks Bro !!!! same here if you are in the Nashville area you can try one of mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kano]

and even moreso with a pistol, why?

Just to see what it can do.... I have never used a RR or any such objects.

When you pay that much for a pistol it's good to know what it can do...

I do all my shooting hand held with iron sights. I agree with you that too shoot with a pistol or rifle should be done hand held.

[Kano]

Kano, Sorry for there misunderstanding. I was reading about some of the groups posted here and I’m thinking , there aren’t many people that can shoot 1 ½†groups at 50 yards (or even 25 yards).

However… I am talking about standing. Offhand, no rests, slings, arm braces or other equipment; just you and the gun.

If you put a pistol in a ransom rest or a rifle in a sled; where’s the skill?

I am a little defensive from working 21 years in prisons & jails in CT:screwy:... I am a little high strung but you guys are OK and it would be cool to shoot some ammo and talk pistols or what ever !!!!!!!!!! now about hand held shooting I have good days & bad ones ...I can some times do 5 shot groups at 25 yards of 2" or less...I have done a few of 1" ..but thats on a real good day. My best was a 5 shot at 30 yards of a little over 1" but that was a freaky good day. Trust me some times I just plain STINK !!!!!

[Kano]

I love my Taurus PT1911

A good friend has one and he did some good groups with it... he had a used glock that he was unreal with at 25 yards...He made me look bad some times with my over priced pistols !!!!!

[Guest grimel]

if your ever near knoxville lemme know and you can shoot it.

You need to make it to one of the Oak Ridge shoots. I wanna glomb my fat hands on one of them.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Nighthawk Customs are definitely worth twice as much as the average 1911. Most shooters won't appreciate the extra smoothness, checkering, etc.. I appreciate Nighthawk Customs, but I'm more of a Springfield Loaded type of guy.

[dunndw]

Nighthawk, Ed Brown. I own, shoot and carry both brands. the had fitment, hand checkering, the smooth as glass slide/frame fit and the more personal customer service if needed make them worth the extra money. I've compared the slide/frame fit on my Eds and NHCs to my Kimber, Springfields, etc, the higher end guns are fit better. Don't get me started on a nice Nighthawk trigger...it's a thing a beauty

Quick story, I sent a Nighthawk back in to have ambi's installed. There was some miscommunication in pricing, and they lost my gun on top of it.

I made ONE post on a 1911 forum griping about it. The next day Guns and Leather (who handled getting the work done for me) got a call from Nighthawk telling him to comp the entire job because they had a unhappy customer and they (Nighthawk)wanted to make it right.

THAT is customer service. No muss, no fuss, no arguements. They not only fixed the problem, apologized for the mess, they went out of their way to make it right.

Kimber, Springfield, etc (which I ALSO own) are too "big" to do that.

[redstategunnut]

I own a Colt, a Kimber and a Nighthawk. I've had no trouble with any of them at all. I like the Colt and the Kimber and consider them fine pistols, but the fit and finish of the Nighthawk is superior. I'm not going to trash any other maker, but when I rack the slide on some pistols it feels to me like there is sand in the gun.

Is it worth the extra money? I don't know, it's just money, I'll make more.

[Guest HexHead]

When I had my two Kimbers I thought I'd never be able to tell the difference that the other $1000-1500 would buy you with a Nighthawk.

Well I ended up getting this Talon II...

First trip to the range I took it with my Pro Carry II and after a magazine of each, I knew the Kimber would be up for sale. Last March, I made the mistake of taking my Royal II (which I'd always considered a keeper) to the range with my NHC, and a week later I traded it away for a Python.

Yeah, there really is a difference.

[Guest CK1]

Are these 1911's that good that they cost nearly twice what a decent one sells for?

been thinking about this a lot as of late as i'm buying or building a new 1911 soon.

imho, no.

they're more expensive for the same reason a porsche costs more than say a corvette... they both perform about the same, give or take, and do what they're meant to, but there is a major difference... it's exclusivity.

i look at it this way: anyone who knows anything about guitars will tell you, if you want to get a good fender strat, play every one you can, then decide. some will be awesome, some will suck, most will be average... the design and looks will be about the same on each one, proven and timeless, it's the build + materials quality that usually sets them apart.

a more expensive 1911 will usually have seen some better attention to detail when they put it together, and on average may be made of more quality materials than another, but make no mistake, with high dollar 1911's it's been my experience that it's more about the stippiling, lpi count, finish, and name recognition, than it is about it out-performing lesser specimens.

with guitars, you can find an "ok" one, and have some work put into it by a good luthier and end up with a keeper.

with 1911's, imho, if you can find one with a decent slide to frame fit, and maybe a good barrel (there are some pretty inexpensive one's out there these days that come with "match" grade barrels... then there's the 1911 aftermarket...), you can take a couple crisp hundred dollar bills to a good gunsmith and end up with one that will stack up to some of the best (most expensive) out there, maybe even be better.

besides... been doing some research... if you don't know already, you'll never guess who is one of the biggest suppliers of 1911 parts to quite a few of the "boutique" maker's....

starts with a "T", ends with an "S", and is the second astrological sign in the Zodiac...

just my $0.02

[willis68]

been thinking about this a lot as of late as i'm buying or building a new 1911 soon.

imho, no.

they're more expensive for the same reason a porsche costs more than say a corvette... they both perform about the same, give or take, and do what they're meant to, but there is a major difference... it's exclusivity.

i look at it this way: anyone who knows anything about guitars will tell you, if you want to get a good fender strat, play every one you can, then decide. some will be awesome, some will suck, most will be average... the design and looks will be about the same on each one, proven and timeless, it's the build + materials quality that usually sets them apart.

a more expensive 1911 will usually have seen some better attention to detail when they put it together, and on average may be made of more quality materials than another, but make no mistake, with high dollar 1911's it's been my experience that it's more about the stippiling, lpi count, finish, and name recognition, than it is about it out-performing lesser specimens.

with guitars, you can find an "ok" one, and have some work put into it by a good luthier and end up with a keeper.

with 1911's, imho, if you can find one with a decent slide to frame fit, and maybe a good barrel (there are some pretty inexpensive one's out there these days that come with "match" grade barrels... then there's the 1911 aftermarket...), you can take a couple crisp hundred dollar bills to a good gunsmith and end up with one that will stack up to some of the best (most expensive) out there, maybe even be better.

besides... been doing some research... if you don't know already, you'll never guess who is one of the biggest suppliers of 1911 parts to quite a few of the "boutique" maker's....

starts with a "T", ends with an "S", and is the second astrological sign in the Zodiac...

just my $0.02

I recently Bought a new Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster V-Neck in candy apple red, it is awesome, there are several lower quality strats, made in foreign countries, mine was made in Corona California, I paid more for this as it was important to me, build quality, finishing ETC

If you think that you can spend $200 dollars with a good gun smith and make a stock Kimber or such as good as a Nighthawk, Wilson, Brown, Baer I would love to have some of what you are smoking!

I would like to see your source for this information, as I know for a fact that all the ones I own and have owned Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, Wilson Combat have never used these parts

Edited May 6, 2009 by willis68

[Guest CK1]

I recently Bought a new Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster V-Neck in candy apple red, it is awesome, there are several lower quality strats, made in foreign countries, mine was made in Corona California, I paid more for this as it was important to me, build quality, finishing ETC

If you think that you can spend $200 dollars with a good gun smith and make a stock Kimber or such as good as a Nighthawk, Wilson, Brown, Baer I would love to have some of what you are smoking!

I would like to see your source for this information, as I know for a fact that all the ones I own and have owned Les Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, Wilson Combat have never used these parts

Look, not looking to get in a debate, my opinion is my own, sorry you don't agree, that's fine too, i'm sure we'll both get over it.

I don't care if any or all of your guns have Taurus parts or not. Taurus makes many OEM parts for many other gun companies... so what?

Is it about where the parts came from, or performance?

Do the more expensive guns really shoot or run better than a gunsmith tuned-in gun based on the same design?

the 1911 design is well known to require a bit of breaking in and smoothing over post assembly to be all they can be, and i think having a gunsmith you trust going over it and dialing it in (not upgrading parts necessarily, just tuning it) is extremely cost effective, many 1911's (including expensive one's) need some attention to run right and be reliable.

besides, the 1911 aftermarket is "sky's the limit", many if not all inferior parts can be upgraded incrementally and/or as needed, increasing performance without going broke if chosen wisely.

believe it or not, it's hard for small companies making and selling a high price, low volume product to purchase the muti-million dollar manufacturing equipment needed to fabracate their gun parts in-house... they order them to their specs from somewhere else, like Taurus.

if you need to know more, look into it, the info is out there (although helps if you know someone who works there making parts like I do), some info is on the web, some requires a phone call (doubt any of the "boutique" types will be very forthcoming about where they get their parts... especially if they cost in the $1000's and their parts are coming from "lowly" taurus).

sounds like you've got many nice guns and I'm glad you like them. very nice collection.

I'm just the type who would rather have only one i like, dialed in and running perfectly, regardless of what name is on the slide, maybe saving a few bucks to spend on more ammo. maybe not be as pretty as some others, but shoot just as good or better. after all, they're not for polishing, they're for shooting.

and as for fenders... a friend of mine who is a top player here in music city nailed it:

"do you want a guitar made in mexico and put together by mexicans in mexico, or do you want a guitar made in mexico and put together by mexicans in california?".

knew i was opening a can of worms, but it's a free country, and that's how i feel about it... judging by the thousands you've spent on 1911's, i know how you feel about it too.

many think the high dollar guns are worth every penny... for what i'm looking for, i'm just not one of them.

we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited May 6, 2009 by CK1

[kwe45919]

Funny thing.....the absolute best, most awsomness 1911 I have ever owned was my first one, an Auto Ordance. It had over 20K worth of rounds through it when I bought it so I decided it needed rebuilt. I bought all Wilson replacement parts and sent it down to Dallas, TX with my uncle to take to his local gunsmith he's used for years. When I got it back, it shot like butter. Felt like butter in my hands. Even smelled like buttered gun powder.....Mmmm so sweet!!

Then I became ignorant and sold it thinking I really had to have my Kimber Pro Carry. God was I stupid!!

Still, to this day, I'd say some of the best affordable 1911's are the Springfields or Tauras'.....just my opinion though....

[Guest HexHead]

the 1911 design is well known to require a bit of breaking in and smoothing over post assembly to be all they can be, and i think having a gunsmith you trust going over it and dialing it in (not upgrading parts necessarily, just tuning it) is extremely cost effective, many 1911's (including expensive one's) need some attention to run right and be reliable.

There's a difference between having a competent gunsmith "dialing it in" for you and having the parts hand fitted in the first place.

And to comment on something to said in the earlier post...

a more expensive 1911 will usually have seen some better attention to detail when they put it together, and on average may be made of more quality materials than another, but make no mistake, with high dollar 1911's it's been my experience that it's more about the stippiling, lpi count, finish, and name recognition, than it is about it out-performing lesser specimens.

Then why did my Nighthawk shoot groups half the size of the ones my Kimbers did?

[willis68]

Look, not looking to get in a debate, my opinion is my own, sorry you don't agree, that's fine too, i'm sure we'll both get over it.

I don't care if any or all of your guns have Taurus parts or not. Taurus makes many OEM parts for many other gun companies... so what?

Is it about where the parts came from, or performance?

Do the more expensive guns really shoot or run better than a gunsmith tuned-in gun based on the same design?

the 1911 design is well known to require a bit of breaking in and smoothing over post assembly to be all they can be, and i think having a gunsmith you trust going over it and dialing it in (not upgrading parts necessarily, just tuning it) is extremely cost effective, many 1911's (including expensive one's) need some attention to run right and be reliable.

besides, the 1911 aftermarket is "sky's the limit", many if not all inferior parts can be upgraded incrementally and/or as needed, increasing performance without going broke if chosen wisely.

believe it or not, it's hard for small companies making and selling a high price, low volume product to purchase the muti-million dollar manufacturing equipment needed to fabracate their gun parts in-house... they order them to their specs from somewhere else, like Taurus.

if you need to know more, look into it, the info is out there (although helps if you know someone who works there making parts like I do), some info is on the web, some requires a phone call (doubt any of the "boutique" types will be very forthcoming about where they get their parts... especially if they cost in the $1000's and their parts are coming from "lowly" taurus).

sounds like you've got many nice guns and I'm glad you like them. very nice collection.

I'm just the type who would rather have only one i like, dialed in and running perfectly, regardless of what name is on the slide, maybe saving a few bucks to spend on more ammo. maybe not be as pretty as some others, but shoot just as good or better. after all, they're not for polishing, they're for shooting.

and as for fenders... a friend of mine who is a top player here in music city nailed it:

"do you want a guitar made in mexico and put together by mexicans in mexico, or do you want a guitar made in mexico and put together by mexicans in california?".

knew i was opening a can of worms, but it's a free country, and that's how i feel about it... judging by the thousands you've spent on 1911's, i know how you feel about it too.

many think the high dollar guns are worth every penny... for what i'm looking for, i'm just not one of them.

we'll have to agree to disagree.

What (Boutique) your words,1911 builders use Taurus parts? you were insinuating that Wilson, Nighthawk or such companies are, at least that is how I read what you claim. Please tell me the source of your research and exactly what Boutique 1911 builders use their parts?

[Guest CK1]

There's a difference between having a competent gunsmith "dialing it in" for you and having the parts hand fitted in the first place.

And to comment on something to said in the earlier post...

Then why did my Nighthawk shoot groups half the size of the ones my Kimbers did?

What (Boutique) your words,1911 builders use Taurus parts? you were insinuating that Wilson, Nighthawk or such companies are, at least that is how I read what you claim. Please tell me the source of your research and exactly what Boutique 1911 builders use their parts?

:chill:just forget it. i don't even want to argue, just let it go.

i'm totally wrong. obviously the more expensive guns are WAY better than the less expensive ones... what was i thinking...

a taurus 1911 ($500-600) can only produce 1" groups at 25yrds (the expensive guns for what they cost must be able to put all your shots through the same hole:rolleyes:)...

*(i don't know and don't care who makes wilson's, or nighthawk's parts... call them and find out if you want to know... if you want to know who is contracting taurus manufacturing to make some of their parts you can call them also, or just choose to not believe it, i'm not scouring the net to make some stupid point that has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with some kind of pride insecurity issue...)

[willis68]

:chill:just forget it. i don't even want to argue, just let it go.

i'm totally wrong. obviously the more expensive guns are WAY better than the less expensive ones... what was i thinking...

a taurus 1911 ($500-600) can only produce 1" groups at 25yrds (the expensive guns for what they cost must be able to put all your shots through the same hole:rolleyes:)...

*(i don't know and don't care who makes wilson's, or nighthawk's parts... call them and find out if you want to know... if you want to know who is contracting taurus manufacturing to make some of their parts you can call them also, or just choose to not believe it, i'm not scouring the net to make some stupid point that has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with some kind of pride insecurity issue...)

I do know who makes their parts, you made a statement that Taurus supplied parts to Boutique 1911 companies, I am not trying to argue with you one bit, but for you to make a statement like that I would like to think you could back it up, that is all Please do not buy any high end 1911's obviously they are not for you and that will make the time myself and several others who appreciate them have to wait less for them to be built, so spread the word, tell everyone that you know that they are a waste of money...

Edited May 6, 2009 by willis68

[Kano]

a taurus 1911 ($500-600) can only produce 1" groups at 25yrds (the expensive guns for what they cost must be able to put all your shots through the same hole:rolleyes:)...

The Taurus.... More like 2.55" ..... 5 Shot groups at 25 yards..

I like Ed Browns & Les Baers & Wilson Combat but to each his own.. for the money the Taurus is a decent pistol

From Shooting Times Magazine

A Real Shooter

With all this pedigree, it's almost anticlimactic to say how the PT 1911 shoots--but it shoots well. Face it; the Model 1911 pistol is such a time-proven design, and all of its manufacturing idiosyncrasies have been worked out for so long, that a gunmaker would have to be really bad to screw one up. I had the opportunity to run five varied commercial .45 ACP loads through the preproduction review sample. Thanks to the Heinie sights and a crisp 3.25-pound trigger pull, my first full-magazine familiarization runs fired offhand at 50 feet with Federal's Personal Defense load printed at about 2.5 inches, which is certainly what I'd expect from any tightly fitted and full-featured Model 1911 pistol. The overall average for all five loads from benchrest at 25 yards was essentially the same.

PT 1911 averaged 2.55 inches for five-shot groups at 25 yards with five different factory loads.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

One difference is the Wilson or Nighthawk that shoots well and is reliable is not anything out of the ordinary...it is expected. The Taurus that does well is something no one really expects.....The Nighthawk or Wilson that does not work is an anomoly...the Taurus or Kimber that does not work 100% is unfortunatley more common than it should be.

The 1911 is a 100 year old design that was created when labor was cheap and machinery was expensive. So hand fitting was part of the manufacturing process. 1911 pattern guns really need hand fitting. But that adds too much to cost since now machining is cheap and labor is expensive. You simply cannot turn out a $500 1911 and have much if any fitting done. It is all CNC machined and put together with no fitting done. Some guns work great some do not.

My Wilson 1911 has performed 100% and has yet to have a malfunction.Why? Hand fitting by folks who know what they are doing. Of course I keep it clean and lubed. But my 1920 era 1911 also works 100%...but back then they hand fitted those too........

Edited May 6, 2009 by Cruel Hand Luke

[willis68]

One difference is the Wilson or Nighthawk that shoots well and is reliable is not anything out of the ordinary...it is expected. The Taurus that does well is something no one really expects.....The Nighthawk or Wilson that does not work is an anomoly...the Taurus or Kimber that does not work 100% is unfortunatley more common than it should be.

The 1911 is a 100 year old design that was created when labor was cheap and machinery was expensive. So hand fitting was part of the manufacturing process. 1911 pattern guns really need hand fitting. But that adds too much to cost since now machining is cheap and labor is expensive. You simply cannot turn out a $500 1911 and have much if any fitting done. It is all CNC machined and put together with no fitting done. Some guns work great some do not.

My Wilson 1911 has performed 100% and has yet to have a malfunction.Why? Hand fitting by folks who know what they are doing. Of course I keep it clean and lubed. But my 1920 era 1911 also works 100%...but back then they hand fitted those too........

You are correct, back in the day they built them right, now days you have to pay for hand fitting and know how

[Guest HexHead]

:chill:just forget it. i don't even want to argue, just let it go.

i

*(i don't know and don't care who makes wilson's, or nighthawk's parts... call them and find out if you want to know... if you want to know who is contracting taurus manufacturing to make some of their parts you can call them also, or just choose to not believe it, i'm not scouring the net to make some stupid point that has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with some kind of pride insecurity issue...)

You're just a troll. Make a statement of "fact" like that and then just blow off proving it when called on it. Just a classic example of a troll.

[Daniel]

One difference is the Wilson or Nighthawk that shoots well and is reliable is not anything out of the ordinary...it is expected. The Taurus that does well is something no one really expects.....The Nighthawk or Wilson that does not work is an anomoly...the Taurus or Kimber that does not work 100% is unfortunatley more common than it should be.

The 1911 is a 100 year old design that was created when labor was cheap and machinery was expensive. So hand fitting was part of the manufacturing process. 1911 pattern guns really need hand fitting. But that adds too much to cost since now machining is cheap and labor is expensive. You simply cannot turn out a $500 1911 and have much if any fitting done. It is all CNC machined and put together with no fitting done. Some guns work great some do not.

My Wilson 1911 has performed 100% and has yet to have a malfunction.Why? Hand fitting by folks who know what they are doing. Of course I keep it clean and lubed. But my 1920 era 1911 also works 100%...but back then they hand fitted those too........

I was under the impression that part of the army's requirement for a pistol was that you could take 5 of them and drop the parts in a box and put 5 together again.

[Guest grimel]

:chill:just forget it. i don't even want to argue, just let it go.

i'm totally wrong. obviously the more expensive guns are WAY better than the less expensive ones... what was i thinking...

IOW, you pulled a "fact" out of your a$$, have been called on it, and aren't able to show proof so you don't want to argue.

[Guest stevek]

Sorry 'bout coming to the dance late, but here's my

When I decided to finally get a 1911, I really loved the way the Kimber Raptor II looked, so I picked it up. Liked it so well, that I had to pick up the Ultra Raptor II, and finally the Pro Raptor II, which my wife quickly took the opportunity to inform me that the Pro was "hers". A couple years later I got a craving for a "top-of-the-line" 1911. The Ed Brown Kobra Carry was calling to me, so I had to answer . The Taurus 1911 is a great value, as are many less expensive variants of this venerable design. As long as you are happy with your purchase that should be all that matters.

To me it is much like my guitar and amp purchases. Could I play my music on a Mexican Strat and a Peavey transistor amp? Absolutely. I prefer to play it on my custom Thorn guitar and Fuchs amp.