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Hummm...I was under the impression that we have neighborhood watches (encouraged by law enforcement agencies) and that most of us carry precisely because the "cops" are usually not going to be there at the precise moment we need them.  :shrug:

My dogs are like children to me. I'll leave it at that.

If we stop speculating or making arguments for one side or the other this thread would be dead and we would have to wait for the trial to end. Where’s the fun in that. I don’t have a dog in this fight; this ruling will have absolutely zero impact on me being able to defend myself. I do enjoy a good conversation/debate on legal matters. Nothing is written in stone. I could argue either side of this case and make a compelling argument. That is what is going to happen in the closing arguments and the jury will determine who presented a better case.

You're right, I'm assuming. Based on my knowledge, experience and what has been released regarding this case, my educated assumption is that Zimmerman initiated and/or escalated this confrontation whilst carrying and knowing he would end this with his firearm if it turned physical. I'm not a prosecutor, defense attorney, juror, judge, DA or law enforcement officer, so the onus is not on me to provide proof or evidence. It's called an opinion. Your life experiences may cause you to come to a different conclusion, and I'm okay with that. The thing that drives me nuts is folks who willfully refuse to acknowledge that the possibility exists that the victim here is the deceased; it shows prejudice. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Trevon went out with the intention of being some bad boy gangbanger and assaulting poor white Hispanics with Skittles. I just don't believe that is the case. In fact, before all this blew up and I was following this as a local story, I made the assumption Martin was up to no good simply based on the location and the incredibly biased story written by the Orlando Sentinel. My opinions changed as more info came out. If more info comes out in favor of Zimmerman I'm prepared to accept that too. I don't think this character assault has any bearing on what happened that night.

This is just conversation, speculation and opinions from all of us.   What would I have done? Well I wouldn’t have jumped out of my truck and started following/chasing someone that had committed no crime. The Police were on their way; I would have let them handle it. I don’t get in physical confrontations when I’m armed…. It’s reckless.   If I’m in a position of having my head pounded in the pavement its either because I’m a willing participant in a fight where I let my azz overload my mouth, in which case I can’t use a gun to end it and would have to rely on other means. Or, it is an unprovoked attacked in which I could shoot my assailant dead with no remorse or fear of prosecution. Yes, you could die in a fight; although it is highly unlikely. If you are so worried about that don’t do stupid stuff that puts you in that position. That is your responsibility.   Badazzes don’t run. They don’t run from civilians and many don’t even run from the cops. If Martin was the thug badazz many of you are portraying him to be he would have gone heads up against Zimmerman; he would not have run. I think he was probably scared and may have even seen the gun. With fear and adrenalin pumping he reacted by trying to stop the threat.  That’s mere speculation on my part because we can’t ask him; Zimmerman shot him to death.   I don’t think Zimmerman was out for blood. I think he was a cop wannabe that thought he was on patrol in the neighborhood. He committed a reckless act that led to the death of a kid that was committing no crime, but “looked suspicious” to Zimmerman.  That is unfortunate for him; it cost him his life.   We didn’t hear about this because it was a white guy killing a black kid. We heard about this because the cops wanted to arrest Zimmerman and when DA refused; the community reacted. From day 1 the pro Zimmerman side has been saying that the cops said it was justified. It has been shown time and time again that is just not true; the cops wanted an arrest warrant that night. It is the DA’s discretion on whether or not to file charges. It is the communities right to react when they think he made a mistake. That is what happened and the Governor and the Attorney General decided to replace him; that is their discretion.   What do I think is driving this big debate? I think some are afraid that if Zimmerman is found guilty their right to defend them will be compromised. I don’t feel that way; I wouldn’t be in that situation and if I was I would fight and win or take my azz whipping for being stupid; not pull my gun and kill someone.   Is this a racist issue? I don’t know. Would Zimmerman have stopped a white kid walking down the street? He said “They always get away” how many times has he done this? Has any of the people that “got away” from him, or been stopped by him come forward?   The defense team is reduced to blaming the victim using prior acts that had no bearing on this incident; that is a very dangerous course of action to take when you have someone that has never been arrested vs. someone that has been arrested for violence.  Pot and having a gun? You have to be kidding me. How many of you here have smoked pot and own guns? I would be more worried about that becoming an issue in a self-defense trial than some of the other stuff going on. Did he have these defense attorney’s when he lied about his assets and his wife was arrested? Either his attorneys are incompetent or he outright lied to them also. That won’t help him.   Yes, Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch program. But the cops always stress that you do not engage; you are eyes and ears only. Why? Because of stuff like this.   Zimmerman is hosed no matter what happens. I was appalled when the AG refused to arrest the members of the New Black Panther Party that publically put out a hit on Zimmerman. That is a crime in any state I have been in; maybe it isn’t in Florida. But that is what he has to deal with if he gets off.   Do I think he will be convicted? No, I think it will end in a hung jury. This is going to be a tough case to get a jury to agree on.   These are simply my opinions on a very high profile case. I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty and he deserves a fair trial. I’m sure the trial will be televised and we will get to see the evidence and make our own judgments about the witnesses.    

Rog, but the few ammo outlets left that are selling for a decent price are cleaned out too. I guess it'll be moot here in the near future since things will be getting back to normal soon, but for right now I can't go anywhere in town and get the ammo I want, yet there is more ammo advertised on Armslist than ever EVER before.... you don't at all find that odd? This would be a strong indicator of an overpriced market and I would expect prices to fall pretty quickly and also for more suppliers to enter the market hoping to take advantage of the higher prices. One important factor to consider is that there are a large number of people who are regular shooters who used to buy as they need and are now building a reserve stockpile. This is creating a high temporary demand of likely double or even more than usual and will only stop when people feel they have a decent reserve. I predict the 22 supply situation will continue through at least the rest of this year.

So....it's just people who try to protect their neighborhoods you have a problem with? My neighborhood saw a rash of burglaries in 2011 so in 2012, guess what...we formed a neighborhood watch.  Since then, burglaries have decreased from two or three a week to about one per month.  I suppose we could have just sat in our homes and let the cops do their job but I for one prefer less burglaries.

Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman.    Zimmerman is on trial for stopping that assault.

Since the debate continues I will ask what I asked in the first epic thread and got nothing but politician responses.   What would YOU DO as a licensed and permitted handgun carrier if someone was on top of you slamming the back of your head into the pavement?   The events leading up to your potential death or permanent disability are really irrelevent.  At the point Zimmerman fired the shot heard round the country he was in such a postition and the events leading up to that do not justify his "taking an ass-whoopping".

Got some news coming in the next few days...   Stay tuned for updates.

Just got these. My favorites so far. Fit, finish, and function is perfect on both knives. One thing I'll say about the 300... If you enjoy seeing that expanding wet spot on the front of some liberal's Dockers, just whip that sucker out in the Starbucks and lop off the top of your sugar pack. :). Evil black knife.

Decided we needed some family time away from the phone and computers, so I took the baby and the wife out to LBL today. Did some fishing at bards lake. Not to much biting on the bank where we were at other than blue gill. Most of them little ones but about a dozen or so keeper size but threw them all back. Today was more about making memories than catching fish but its always nice when you can do both. I know my little girl wont remember it but its a trip my wife and I will never forget. [url=http://s987.photobucket.com/user/cwillard1983/media/Paige_zpscf4f9885.jpg.html][/URL]

   Innocent is a pretty self-explanatory term. There is no indication (or even accusation as far as I know) that Martin was committing or suspected of committing any crime. He did not fit the profile of what Zimmerman thought someone walking in that neighborhood should be. That profiling resulted in him getting into a confrontation and being killed. Was be profiled because he was black, looked like a thug, or just because he wasn’t known to Zimmerman; I don’t know. If I was prosecuting this case I would be looking for those that Zimmerman had stopped or called the Police on and see if I could find out. I would want to know who he was talking about and the circumstances when he said “They always get away”. Maybe they have already done that. Is Zimmerman innocent? Nope, an innocent kid is dead because of the reckless circumstances he put in play. He could be acquitted of the charges against him; but that doesn’t mean he is innocent. I am well aware of the fact that we have a legal system and not a justice system. No matter what the verdict is (assuming there is a trial) a bunch of folks are going to complain justice was not served.

Why bother having any immigration laws at all if no-one is going to either abide or bother to enforce them anyway?

I hope that we don't use that logic, because if we do my actions between the age of 14 and the time that I joined the Army would have made me public enemy #1.

Yeah, I'm no expert either but the definition of 2nd degree murder does not fit the evidence we know of currently. Even if Zimmerman did indeed initiate the confrontation with the knowledge and intention to use deadly force to end the confrontation it still doesn't rise to the level of 2nd degree murder. I figure there will be some sort of witness testimony that we are yet unaware of, otherwise he will be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder. For those who think that initiating confrontation then shooting a person when in fear for your life is legal, you should REALLY familiarize yourselves with cases where that happened and the individual was RIGHTLY convicted of murder. Most recently I can recall the case where a guy picked a fight with three dudes, then shot them when they started kicking his ass. Undoubtedly I will be in fear for my life if I'm getting curb stomped by three dudes, but if I started the fight none of that matters. I don't see what it is so damn hard for folks to swallow that. If it was okay I (in theory) can go around picking fights with 7ft 300 lb dudes, then shoot them as soon as they take a swing. Whether or not who swung first doesn't matter, it boils down to intent.

  Is he becoming a RINO?  No, he already was one with a just a little more polish.

You are smarter than that Robert. You are dumbing down your logic for the approval of the lynch mob. I approve of neighborhood watches. I don't approve of watchmen doing investigations or injecting themselves into the action. Whatever that young man was doing, Zimmermans only responsibility was to observe and report.

For second degree murder they must have some sort of evidence that we aren't aware of, otherwise I'd not cast a vote to convict (based on what we know). Manslaughter though, I believe the evidence will point to that and his attorneys will have to make a pretty good argument to get him out of it.

I think the entire problem stems from having way too many busybodies in this country.   There are so many, on both sides of the aisle, that want to force each other to accept their viewpoint as the correct one.  What happened to people just minding their own damn business?  Seems to me that we all would be much better off if we did that very thing.   If you are a religious person and an individual or organization's behavior, practices, or whatever offends you, tough ****.  Unless it somehow impedes your ability to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, close your mouth and move on.  The same thing can be said of those in the minority status.  If some organization doesn't accept your kind, bfd, wash your hands of them and go about your business.

Is it immoral for a father to kill his daughter because she brought shame to his family? Is it immoral to behead a person for not believing in a diff way of a diff god? Is it immoral to to lay with another man? Just where do we draw thew line? I have beliefs and want to hang around like minded people that I feel good about. Is it immoral to feel that way? If others dont feel the same way about the things like I do they should not impose their beliefs on me our the people that I hang around with. I believe in God, I use the 10 commandments, am I immoral? I do not walk up to anyone and tell them they have to do as I do in these beliefs. The more immoral we become the closer to the end we get.

How does it make sense? Probably because of the out & out distortion of Trayvon's character was portrayed as a 6 yr old angel, who was skipping merrily & innoccently down to the store to fetch candy & iced-tea, when mean evil white guy gunned him down in cold blood for simply being black. Now folks are taking a closer look at this lil angel & not liking the fact we were lied too, had the facts purposely distorted by folks who had a racial agenda & now having to watch Zimmerman go through the grinder for defending himself against a brutal assault at the hands of this lil angel. "Justice for Trayvon" *spit* has already been served, now it's time to drop the obviously trumped up charges on Zimmerman & arrest Trayvon's parents or "auntie" or who ever it was who hid/covered up the fact that Trayvon had planted dope plants & a stolen handgun in his bedroom and charge them with hindering a homicide investigation.

Found myself bored on the weekends, so I bought a bike for money free fun on the weekends. I forgot how much i liked it as a kid. I cant stop riding and go out every day. 5-9 miles an evening and up to 50 miles on the weekend. Ive also got an addiction to adding things like lights, speaker etc... My wife said the other day i looked thinner, jumped on the scale and ive lost 14 pounds in 3 months. Its pretty cool yo get healthy with something so fun. Who else enjoys biking?

Generally speaking, there is far more pressure from the right to end abortion. Also, generally speaking, the Right tends to base their opinions on religious beliefs. That's really the only point I was trying to make.    As I stated before, I'm not gay or religious. Because of this, the gay issue couldn't mean less to me. My biggest problem, is the fact that we have so many on both sides who like to complain about some other group forcing their ideals, all while acting as if they don't do the very same thing. You can play semantics all day long, but as someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I think both sides are full of crap, turning it into something it isn't.     For whatever reasons, BSA enrollment has dropped nearly 50% in the last 30-40 years, almost 15% in the last 10 or so years. Unless there's a mass exodus — which I don't believe there will be — the loss of members won't be anything new to the organization. As difficult as it is for many to swallow, the times and society are constantly changing.   As I said before, there are battles and wars I'm willing to fight, but this ain't one of them. Some claim this issue is somehow a political ploy by the Left, but I think you're giving the opposition far too much credit. If it is a ploy, you just fell into their trap by taking your eye off the ball. If a ploy at all, it's nothing more than a distraction, and I'm not willing to give them that much credit.    Sadly, much like the BSA, the right-leaning Republicans are a dying breed. If we push away the minorities, the gays, and anyone else we don't completely agree with, we are left all alone. If you wish to stand by your convictions, no matter the outcome, I'm all for that. On the flip-side, if this is the path you choose, be willing to accept the consequences. Personally, I think the Right could be a little more flexible on certain subjects. Let God sort them out.  

I call them like I see them & I am not surprised that you're offended, but I am not a fan of thuggery or thugs, regardless of their color, you do remember that whole "content of their character" speech? anyway I am thoroughly disgusted by the folks trying to turn this Trayvon thug into some kind of martyr because of his skin color, not because of the content of his character. If my being disgusted by that offends you, well then the problem is on your end, not mine.

  Who do you think makes the rules?

I saw the show and was not impressed at all. The border has to be secured all around the country, not just the southern one.

I would agree with the description had Zman not say something about "they always get away". Whos' they?   Dave

All of my opinions are based on my miniscule amount of law enforcement knowledge. After Zimmerman lost sight of Martin the best thing for him to have done would be to tell law enforcement the general direction that he last saw Martin heading. I hear people in these threads say "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Zimmerman started the game and may win the ultimate prize.

  It shouldn’t have anything to do with it unless it was a reason Zimmerman picked out Martin. I would want that answered if I was a juror, and I would want to hear it from Zimmerman. Accusing someone of racism isn’t bad if that is what happened.     This isn’t a political issue unless you think a local DA should have unlimited discretion in a murder investigation when the Police have ask for an arrest warrant. And he better listen to the community when they tell him an injustice is taking place. Not sending this case to trial would have been an injustice no matter what race the victim was.

  The race card has already been played; the community did it. They claim he was targeted because he was black. Right or wrong it worked; they got the Governors attention.   Who here has implied you are a racist for your views?

Since I have to put a quart in every 4-5 weeks, I don't need to change mine. :stalk:

Many here would likely disagree about how smart I am. :)   Moving on, the problem with what people think ZImmerman did as a "watch captain" is that no one really know what Zimmerman did.  For all we really know ZImmerman could have been running Martin down with his gun drawn and shouting racial insults causing little Travon to turn and fight....OR...Zimmerman could simply have kept his distance but still keep an eye on Martin and then when the 911 operator said "you don't have to to that" he turned around, walked calmly back to his vehicle (in other words, totally disengaged from the situation) when Martin; trying to be the gansta he wanted to be, pursue ZImmerman, jumped him and started beating him resulting in Zimmerman justifiably defending his life.   Of course; the facts...the truth likely lie somewhere in between.

I don't believe Zimmerman was a willing participant in a fight. Whether he caught up to the younger, faster kid (highly unlikely) and confronted him or was on the way back to his vehicle and was jumped, I doubt he was looking for a fist fight. But, to play it out your way, let's say he did catch up to a scared, adrenaline-pumped Martin, who was in fear of his life, and confronted him. I'll do you one better, let's say in a fit of bravado, Z tried to subdue him physically and a fight ensued. If that's the way it happened, sure he put himself in that position and shares responsibility for the course of events that follow. However, the moment it escalated to attempted murder and his head was being pounded against the sidewalk, NOTHING he did prior forces him to accept death or brain damage over defending his life.

was George Takai a boy scout?

In my opinion I don't think Jesus would shun gays. However, I was at the park yesterday with my kids and saw an incredibly unattractive lesbian couple swinging their child on the swing set. The thought of them holding hands and being intimate really grossed me out. So we need to do something to keep those people separate... ya know, because of MY comfort level. It's the 'Merican way!

I can tell you where I draw the line...I draw the line when someone with a different belief system than I have tells me I must believe the way they do.  However, apart from that, their believing the way they do is irrelevant to how I treat them whether they are in my boy scout troop or sitting across from me in a meeting at work.   Now, if I truly think that my son being in a scout troop where they may or may not be a boy that is gay is a problem for me than I won't let my son be a part of the troop but I'm not going to tell the BSA that they can't set their own policy and I'm not going to claim they "sold out" without actual evidence of that.   I wish someone could explain to me how the Boy Scouts officially allowing homosexual boys to be in the scouts (apparently under the erroneous assumption that they weren't already there) is "immoral" because I truly don't understand it...what am I missing?   Allowing gay boys into scouts is not an endorsement of homosexuality or of homosexual sex any more than allowing "fat" boys in scouts is an endorsement of gluttony; at least not in any way I can see.

Could there be concern about parts kits being restricted from import in the future via EO?

There was a witness who said he say a man in red on the ground getting beat by another man. Zimmerman was wearing red. Unless this witness changes his story, I don't see how a jury could find Zimmerman guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."   Also, there's no way an out of shape Zimmerman could have run down a 17 year old high school athlete. The kid pretty much had to come back.   Regardless, since I won't be on the jury, the real takeaway for me is "never let your guard down."  If Zimmerman had been on high alert, Martin wouldn't have got close enough to punch him.

It doesn't matter what either of them were before that night or what they aspired to be. I'll maintain that if the "watch captain“ had let the real cops do their job that night we wouldn't be talking abouth this.

The only reason any of us ever heard about this case is because an "almost" white guy killed a black youth.     What kills me the most is that none of us were there that night. We only know what the news has reported yet many of you are convinced Zimmerman was out for blood.   I am sure there is evidence from both sides that we haven't seen but my guy is that Zimmerman is acquitted.

I think Zimmerman is innocent and have thought so pretty much from the beginning, mostly because before all the political/racial shit started the DA had declined to prosecute (I really, really doubt a prosecutor would not prosecute if he thought he had this serious of a winnable case) and especially after the un-doctored tapes and witness statements started to come out.   I think these pictures and text messages just shows "sweet little Travon" for exactly what he is, a want-a-be badass/gansta with not a lot going on upstairs and a big chip on his shoulder.

I don't think anyone is surprised by this new evidence. Seemed pretty clear TM was a thug from the get-go, not an innocent kid. GZ is no saint, either, but I don't believe what he did wrong warranted him dying, which is what would have happened if TM kept bashing his head against that sidewalk.

I would agree with this but I tend to doubt that most gays are abusive. If we as gun owners start getting on the bandwagon of blaming a whole group for the actions of a few we may as well just give up now. Oh wait, this is different. This is for the children.

heh... I've got a good one...   About 10 yrs ago, I was home alone (don't remember where my wife was) and had just started cleaning my SKS on the coffee table when the door bell rang. Just for laughs, I answered the door with the rifle in hand (the bolt was sitting on the coffee table). The 19 yr old kid's eye got kinda big, but he took a deep breath and launched into his pitch. The fact that the came in anyway impressed me, so I let him go. I continued cleaning the rifle while he talked. At every opportunity I'd clack, snap, or pop pieces together quite loudly just to watch him flinch. I had to try hard to keep a straight face. He started sweating.   :)   He went through the whole demo of comparing the Kirby to my current vacuum and extolled the virtues of the Kirby. Being the nerdy engineer type, I counter-pointed nearly every feature he said was better and challenged him to explain why it was better. He struggled a bit but didn't quit. He conceded a few things that I convinced him weren't actually any better, simply more (and unnecessarily) complicated. When he didn't have an answer, he said he would find out and let me know. Somewhere in there I got finished with the rifle and put it away.   As with everyone else, these sale presentations are exceedingly long and it was dinner time so I started fixing dinner for myself. I offer him something but he refused and continued with this pitch while I cooked. His boss came back by the house about the time I sat down to eat. She was pretty cute and I figured this is where she swoops in for the kill.   :dirty:   I told her that the kid was an excellent salesman and had performed admirably in the face of some pretty difficult questions. So while I'm eating my supper, time to talk brass tax comes. She dropped the $2100 bomb on me and I nearly choked.   :stunned:   $2100?!?! For a vacuum? Are you freakin' insane?    :eek:  Do you come with it and vacuum the house for me or something? My current vacuum cost me $100, do you know how much ammo I could buy with the other $2000?    We go back and forth for a while and the price eventually drops down to $700, which is still WAY more than I'd dream of spending on a vacuum. It had been over 2 hrs at this point and I decided I'd had enough fun for one night. So I looked the lady right in the eye and said (and I'm particularly proud of thinking this one up on the spot)....   "Ma'am, here's the deal. If I'm gonna spend that much money on something that sucks, it's damn sure gonna suck more than my carpet."   :wave:   The kid nearly exploded trying not to laugh. Again, I had a hard time keeping a straight face. She quickly and calmly packed up the vacuum and left. I still laugh thinking about it.   :rofl:     But there's more to the story... I told this story to some co-workers a day or two later. When I got to the $700 part, one of them says "Aw f_ck." Seems he paid $900 for his but should've held out a little longer.  

[URL=http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/glock55/media/IMG-20130522-00018_zpsed9a58f9.jpg.html][/URL] This is my M1a standard with wood stock. I wanted the most original look I could get so removed the original flash suppressor and installed suppressor with bayonet lug. This is probably my favorite gun to shoot. I hope to have a Garand one day but this is a fine substitute. I know you will enjoy yours too.

I went and bought an air pistol. Scalpers can go f--- themselves.

  Because in this case someone else's willingness to pay an inflated price to purchase ammo from profiteers directly impacts the rest of the buying public's ability to walk into a Walmart, LGS, etc. and purchase ammo at normal, retail prices.  It continues to give the profiteers incentive to go into Walmart, skirt the purchase limits by having their friends make straw purchases of ammo for them, clean out the Walmart shelves and not leave any ammo for people who just want to buy a box or two to shoot.  This creates a false market which negatively impacts all, potential ammo buyers - not just the one who decides to pay inflated prices to a profiteer.   If it were just a matter of one guy saying, "Hey, I happen to have more ammo than I need.  I will sell some of it to you at a premium," then that would be one thing.  Encouraging profiteers to continue buying up all the ammo they can get in order to resell it, resulting in a lack of ammo on the shelf for 'regular' shooters to buy, is a completely different matter.

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread. We've clearly got enough interest. I'll keep everyone apprised of progress, and when it goes, everyone will have plenty of time to make payment before we order. To any of our vendors, we're likely going to be looking for a few to facilitate transfers.

STAHD, from another stay at home dad thank you for correcting the "lady" i can't stand peole that do crap like that.    For my part of the rant It seriously Irks me when im out with my little girl and people say aww your babysitting today.  It's always the little things that get to me, but im a father not a babysitter.   I left the Army after 10 years to be a stay at home dad and although it was a great ten years it pales in comparison to just a few months of time with my baby girl.