should physicians routinely inquire about guns?

[Punisher84]

My doc is an old family friend. He carries, his nurses carry, he scolds me if I come in and am not carrying because and I quote "Not having it could be hazardous to your health and as your physician I recommend you carry." I love my Doc.

I do agree with Ghostrider though about ERs and Trauma centers. They are not a good place for patients to have guns. Altered mental status, etc. I have taken quite a few guns off of patients and most understand why, it's the ones that get caught with it and aren't supposed to have it that it gets interesting.

[et45]

I know several Doctors who carry and compete in IPSC or IDPA.

[ftncityfatboy]

so did he grab your bullets, ask you to turn your head and cough?

[Tim Nunan]

I carry this form in case physician should be foolish enough to ask stupid questions:

FIREARMS SAFETY COUNSELING REPRESENTATION:

PHYSICIAN QUALIFICATIONS AND LIABILITY

Part One: Qualifications

I affirm that I am certified to offer (Name of Patient: ), herineafter referred to as "the Patient", qualified advice about firearms safety in the home, having received:

Specify Course(s) of Study:

_________________________________________________________________________

from:

Specify Institution(s)

_________________________________________________________________________

on:

Specify Course Completion Date(s):

_________________________________________________________________________

resulting in:

Specify Accreditation(s), Certification(s), License(s) etc.:

_________________________________________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________________

Check one, as appropriate:

___ I represent that I have reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of private firearms ownership. I further represent that I have reviewed all other relevant home safety issues with the Patient, including those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, etc. I also acknowledge, by receiving this document, I have been made aware that, in his inaugural address before the American Medical Association on June 20, 2001, new president Richard Corlin, MD, admitted "What we don't know about violence and guns is literally killing us...researchers do not have the data to tell how kids get guns, if trigger locks work, what the warning signs of violence in schools and at the workplace are and other critical questions due to lack of research funding." (UPI). In spite of this admission, I represent that I have sufficient data and expertise to provide expert and clinically sound advice to patients regarding firearms in the home.

OR

___ I am knowingly engaging in Home/Firearms Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in Risk Management, and; I have not reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of private firearms ownership.

Part Two: Liability

I have determined, from a review of my medical malpractice insurance, that if I engage in an activity for which I am not certified, such as Firearms Safety Counseling, the carrier (check one, as appropriate):

___ will

___ will not

cover lawsuits resulting from neglect, lack of qualification, etc.

Insurance Carrier name, address and policy number insuring me for firearms safety expertise:

_________________________________________________________________________

I further warrant that, should the Patient follow my firearm safety counseling and remove from the home and/or disable firearms with trigger locks or other mechanisms, and if the patient or a family member, friend or visitor is subsequently injured or killed as a

result of said removal or disabling, that my malpractice insurance and/or personal assets will cover all actual and punitive damages resulting from a lawsuit initiated by the patient, the patient's legal reprerentative, or the patient's survivors.

Signature of attesting physician and date: __________________________________________________

Name of attesting physician (please print):__________________________________________________

Signature of patient and date: ____________________________________________________________

Name of patient (please print):____________________________________________________________

Patient: Indicate if physician "REFUSED TO SIGN." Have physician place a copy in your chart/medical record..

[Smith]

Tim that's great! I doubt they would sign such a thing, but it does put it into context.

As to the other remarks, if asked I would tell him/her (Dr.) to check your "Lemon Squeezer"!

[Tim Nunan]

Looks like this woman could have used the form I posted above:

<!-- m --><!-- m -->Ocala woman refused service from pediatrician for gun | Ocala.com

Family and pediatrician tangle over gun question

Among inquiries about baby's health was “Do you keep a gun in the house?”

It was a question Amber Ullman least expected Wednesday from her children's pediatrician.

Do you keep a gun in the house?

When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused the answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore.

“Whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child,” said the mother of three girls.

The question about the gun had been the last in a series of health questions about Ullmon's 4-month old baby that Dr. Chris Okonkwo had been asking.

“And I'm upset because my children were discharged because I refused to answer the question whether I have a gun… in the house. It's a very invasive and a very personal question,” said Ullman, who works as a property manager.

Ullman said Okonkwo – medical director of Children's Health of Ocala – wouldn't explain why he was asking the question.

“All he asked me was, ‘Are you refusing to answer the question?' and I said,'Yes, I'm refusing to answer the question,'” she said. “The questions stopped at that point.”

As originally reported by channel WKMG 6 in Orlando, Ullman said she called her husband from the doctor's office and threatened to call a lawyer over the incident.

Okonkwo told the Star-Banner he asked Ullman about whether she had a gun in her home because of the safety of her children, and told her so.

He said he asks such questions of all his patients because if there are guns in a home with children, he advises that parents lock them away so children don't hurt themselves.

“The purpose is to give advice… I don't tell them to get rid of the guns,” he said. “The purpose is to give advice.”

He said that more than half the families he treats have guns.

Okonkwo said that during the summer, he asks parents the same kinds of questions about whether they have pools at their homes and gives advice about keeping them safe so children don't wander in and drown.

He said he does the same with young drivers, and asks whether they use their cell phones when they drive.

“I've been asking these questions two, three years,” he said.

Occasionally parents ask why he's inquiring, he said, but when he explains that it's to give them safety tips, they comply, Okonkwo said.

When asked whether he explained to Ullman why he was asking about guns in her home, he said she was too defensive and snapped at him, saying “That it wasn't any of my business… so there was no point.”

Okonkwo said the issue was not about whether the parents owned a gun.

He said he would stop being a child's doctor if the parents also refused to give information about whether they had a pool or smoked in the house.

He said the doctor and patient have to develop a relationship of trust and that if parents won't answer such basic safety questions, how could they trust each other about more important health issues.

He said he respected a patient's right not to answer questions, but it was also his right to no longer treat them.

Ullman's husband, Tom Ullman, said Okonkwo had gone too far.

“If I don't have to register my gun with the state of Florida, why do I have to tell my pediatrician whether I own a gun?” Tom Ullman asked.

“What's safer for my child, to let the question go or discharge my children to another pediatrician?” he added.

The American Association of Pediatrics urges pediatricians to ask questions of parents about gun ownership when they get children's medical histories and to suggest that parents remove guns from the home.

Doctors are not required by law to treat patients.

Amber Ullman said she isn't looking to harm her children's former doctor or discredit him, but rather warn people as to what might happen at the doctor's office.

“I want to let parents know that there could be consequences if you refuse to answer a question that you feel is private,” she said. “Now my children have to suffer because of this and that's not right.”

More at link

[Mike.357]

it is not the doctors business to offer advice on anything other than the health of the patient.

Owning guns is no more dangerous than having knives, or electricity, bicycles etc...

None of that matter in relation to what the doctor should be doing to take care of the child.

[vontar]

I don't.

Unless I spot one on your hip. If I see that its a Glock, then I usually make an immediate psychiatrist referral.

I carry in my office. You can too.

General practice? Maybe I should see if you take my insurance.

Odds are you are not close to Oak Ridge.

[Mike]

Both of my doctors(one GP and one DDS) talk to me about guns.

Both carry and both shoot very regularly.

[vontar]

For the question

Do you keep a gun in the house?

we should go up to the counter, I need more paper, and just start listing pages and pages of guns, even making up names of guns.

But I agree, not the doctors area.

I probably would have just wrote no on it and went on with life. Then if the wrong eyes saw the form and it was used as a target, opps they might be met with a Taurus Judge I am looking at.

[Farman]

For the question

Do you keep a gun in the house?

ans. Try coming through the front door at 0300, you'll find out.

[Mike.357]

I would flat answer the question by asking what that has to do with my health issue.

I doubt it gets asked much of adults, sounds like a nanny issue with kids. Dr. know whats best, yanno

[mikegideon]

No penalty for lying to a doctor. Just say no. If it offends you, find a new doctor at your leisure. No reason to push it into a confrontation when they have zero authority.

[Mike.357]

I agree with you to a point Mike, but there is no reason they need to be asking. Really ticks me off.

I am not one for dodging those that pointedly piss me off.

And I fully suspect this crap arose from the AMA, and newer DR.s just follow with the program.

[Oh Shoot]

...

And I fully suspect this crap arose from the AMA, and newer DR.s just follow with the program.

Which ultimately was probably the advice of lawyers, especially as regards malpractice insurance...."gee my doctor never warned me that an unsecured gun could have killed my kid".

- OS

[mikegideon]

I agree with you to a point Mike, but there is no reason they need to be asking. Really ticks me off.

I am not one for dodging those that pointedly piss me off.

And I fully suspect this crap arose from the AMA, and newer DR.s just follow with the program.

Ticks me off too. I would definately tell them it was none of their business first. Just wouldn't try to "fix" them at my expense

[Mike.357]

Which ultimately was probably the advice of lawyers, especially as regards malpractice insurance...."gee my doctor never warned me that an unsecured gun could have killed my kid".

- OS

This kind of stuff is the downfall of our way of life. People gradually lose their responsibility for their own lives and well being. It has been happening since the 60's, heck probably since before then. I guess I don't know when this all started. I was born in '58. I cannot remember a time in my life where I did not have the idea that the goverment would take care of me if all else failed. ( lost this idea a long time ago, I am remembering back to when I was a kid) I do not think my parents grew up with this idea.

Ticks me off too. I would definately tell them it was none of their business first. Just wouldn't try to "fix" them at my expense

I would tell them to F off, there are other doctors. I really have less and less patience for this crap as I grow older, and ironically enough will soon start needing doctors to continue aging. I have not seen a doctor since I left Florida 8 years ago. And that time was to get an ear cleaned out as it was stopped up. I bet I have not seen a doctor 3 times in 20 years now.

[Oh Shoot]

This kind of stuff is the downfall of our way of life. People gradually lose their responsibility for their own lives and well being.... .

The government started protecting us from ourselves long ago; it has fostered now multiple generations of a welfare class and increasing gummit control of every aspect of our lives.

While there's no question that the quality of life in the US has spiraled downhill for the rank and file since sometime after the boom days of post WWII. I sort of see circa 1975 as the big cut off point.

That's about when it became normal for a man and wife to BOTH have to work to maintain a previous middle class lifestyle. Before that, a fellow could get a decent job with little more than willingness to learn, sweat, and loyalty, and within a few years, could afford a home, a car, a two week vacation, and his wife could stay home and tend to their 2.4 children.

It was also about that time that The Great (Welfare) Society became entrenched enough to realize that it could do about half of that without working at all, and making up the difference with under the table, and generally outside the law, income sources. Or finding someone to sue.

- OS

[Guest mahahn]

I believe the downfall started in the Roosevelt era. All of the programs that were instituted by the government to cure the Great Depression. Sure, those programs did work, WPA, CCA, TVA and the like. However, where did the money come from to pay all of those workers? Next step was WWII. During that era people were employed and were paid by private enterprise but who was buying the products they were manufacturing? The government, and where did the government get the money? Fast forward to 1964, The Great Society created by LBJ and his ilk. Now you didn't even have to work, the government would give you money directly and no work was required. Now normal people, who still believed in the "American Dream" were compelled to support those who were unable or unwilling to work. Things have swiftly been going downhill ever since. Now everyone is a victim. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. Its always somebody else's fault. People have in their mind that someone owes them a living. Government "entitlements" are the culprit. Where does it say in the Constitution that I am entitled to anything other than my personal freedom (which I am losing every day). Society in general is at fault. We have become a nation of whiners. We are soft and lazy, content to let someone else do it. I hope we wake up to reality and soon before its too late.

[Dolomite_supafly]

When I go to see my doctor he asks me if I am carrying and when I tell him I am all I ever hear is "take that thing out of the holster so we can get an accurate weight". He is by far the best doctor I have ever seen. He runs a practice where he makes no appointments, first come, first served and I think this allows him to take as long as it takes to fix you up. He genuinely cares about his patients and is not like most doctors who try to squeeze as many appointments as they can into a single day. He has charged me less for every visit than what I would have to pay in copays when I did have insurance. And because of this even when I did have insurance I would still see him over the last 10 years .

Dolomite

[hipower]

About 2 years ago, I had a portacath implanted in my chest to aid in giving chemotherapy drugs. While waiting in the surgical prep room, the surgeon came in to speak with me. He turned away, stopped and came back and asked " Do you shoot?" I replied yes and asked why. He then told me of a patient earlier that year who had the implant in the right side of his chest, awakened in recovery, and proceeded to have a fit with the staff. It seems he was a highpower rifle shooter and was quite upset about the position of the port. My doctor said he was called back to the recovery room to calm the patient down; and finding out what the problem was, he agreed to implant one one the left side later in the week and remove the one on the right.

Upon hearing all this, I said I'd really didn't do much with rifles, but could we have a left side implant anyway. So he did. And told me that he now makes a practice of asking his patients that if it is something that might interfere with their hobby.

And FWIW, I still ended up with a right side central line for about three/four months when the port shifted internally and started leaking. But that's another sad story.

[vontar]

About 2 years ago, I had a portacath implanted in my chest to aid in giving chemotherapy drugs. While waiting in the surgical prep room, the surgeon came in to speak with me. He turned away, stopped and came back and asked " Do you shoot?" I replied yes and asked why. He then told me of a patient earlier that year who had the implant in the right side of his chest, awakened in recovery, and proceeded to have a fit with the staff. It seems he was a highpower rifle shooter and was quite upset about the position of the port. My doctor said he was called back to the recovery room to calm the patient down; and finding out what the problem was, he agreed to implant one one the left side later in the week and remove the one on the right.

Upon hearing all this, I said I'd really didn't do much with rifles, but could we have a left side implant anyway. So he did. And told me that he now makes a practice of asking his patients that if it is something that might interfere with their hobby.

And FWIW, I still ended up with a right side central line for about three/four months when the port shifted internally and started leaking. But that's another sad story.

at least there was a medical reason here, althought sounds like he probably could have explained his reason for asking a bit better.

[Guest grimel]

Which ultimately was probably the advice of lawyers, especially as regards malpractice insurance...."gee my doctor never warned me that an unsecured gun could have killed my kid".

- OS

Wait until someone follows that idiots advice and gets hurt during a home invasion. Hmm, doctor with no firearms/defensive credentials gave direction someone follows it. I can see legal fees out the wazoo for the doctor.

[The Scullinator]

I agree with you to a point Mike, but there is no reason they need to be asking. Really ticks me off.

I am not one for dodging those that pointedly piss me off.

And I fully suspect this crap arose from the AMA, and newer DR.s just follow with the program.

My patients lie to me all the time... I don't mind but if I'm suspicious of the lying and think it's important that I know the truth I'll just explain why I asked. Sometimes it brings the truth out. Sometimes not. I just expect the patient to take responsibility for the outcome if their condition goes south.

Remember doctors are people too and some are just as retarded as anyone else. Personally I wouldn't take my kids to a pediatrician who had those kind of standards. That is the same type of person that would turn you into authorities for opting out of certain vaccinations.

[Mike.357]

I don't mind but if I'm suspicious of the lying and think it's important that I know the truth

give me a for instance why a DR would need to know if there are firearms in the house? I am not trying to pick a fight just really curious.