Stopping theft with deadly force

[Makiaveli]

Well, I understand your argument, DaveTN, Have to think about it. Aah, that old mitigating circumstances. While I agree

with your argument, that criminal has no right or reason to be on my property, other than to perform criminal activity. I

would reserve the right in any situation , on my property, to determine whether or not I am in fear for my life. I'm going to

be selfish like that, and do what needs to be done. I won't walk away from a criminal if I need to protect my family or property

assuming I am properly capable.

Thanks, it made me think.

Just remember that a court will not put much, if any value, on your opinion of what your rights are. If you tell them you shot him over your car, then it was nice knowing you as I will not visit you in prison.

[daddyo]

I think I see where you are coming from. To be fair, some of the Shoot on Sight people are being a bit overboard. I am especially bemused by the Christians who advocate killing over such minor theft. I would've expected some level of compassion and an attempt to help the person.

I don't see where anyone here identified themselves as Christian, but, since you brought it up, why should they be the only ones held to that expectation?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Few things in real life are completely black or white.

The punk grabbing my pink flamingo from front yard probably shouldn't be shot as many times as the punk who takes my pink car.

- OS

Just because you like Miami Vice and Jimmy Buffet doesn't mean you need to take those thing personally.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I don't see where anyone here identified themselves as Christian, but, since you brought it up, why should they be the only ones held to that expectation?

And here is where the thread takes a 90 degree turn,skiding out of control then going off a cliff in a ball of flames.

Dolomite

[TMF]

I think I see where you are coming from. To be fair, some of the Shoot on Sight people are being a bit overboard. I am especially bemused by the Christians who advocate killing over such minor theft. I would've expected some level of compassion and an attempt to help the person.

Well that boils down to personal feelings and experiences. I wish I could say with a straight face that all life is precious, but I can't. I really feel no remorse for someone who gets killed in the process of victimizing others. But I don't think the take away from that should be that I feel as if death should be punitive, but certainly an option to protect what is rightfully yours. I think that is the misunderstanding here because folks seem unwilling to understand the difference between the two.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Just remember that a court will not put much, if any value, on your opinion of what your rights are. If you tell them you shot him over your car, then it was nice knowing you as I will not visit you in prison.

Have you been in that situation?

I'm reminded that this is the internet, once again. We don't know each other. Why would I want you to visit me in prison?

A court has to take into consideration my statements defending my action. I certainly do have the right to defend my family,

property and even an innocent bystander with necessary force, if available and the situation warrants, especially on my

property. You need to understand that I wouldn't go out of my way to get in a scuffle, either.

I think we've had this discussion in the past. If I ever had to use self defense as a reason for my action, I would do so in

a heartbeat. You wouldn't? That thing around your waist isn't a boat anchor, ya know?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And here is where the thread takes a 90 degree turn,skiding out of control then going off a cliff in a ball of flames.

Dolomite

Twasn't DaddyO

[daddyo]

And here is where the thread takes a 90 degree turn,skiding out of control then going off a cliff in a ball of flames.

Dolomite

No, this is where it took the 90 degree turn:

I am especially bemused by the Christians who advocate killing over such minor theft. I would've expected some level of compassion and an attempt to help the person.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Yea, but you are accusing people of having common sense. :0) I think taking the time to make a value judgment before killing someone is flawed. What would the dollar value be? To some people the cutoff would be a $100 toy they bought their kid, others it would be a vehicle. What about ten bucks? Would it be okay to shoot someone because they stole $10?

It's not practical to place a dollar value on a man's life. Too many times the dollar is used as a tool to do that. kind of a

perverse way to get to justice.

Consider this: do you really think that criminal would not bother to repay a visit, knowing you let him get away with it,

when you could have solved the problem for other's future griefs? Of course, you don't know what that criminal is going

to do, next time. Hindsight is always what?

This is all for the sake of argument. Right?

[piercedan]

It's not practical to place a dollar value on a man's life. Too many times the dollar is used as a tool to do that. kind of a

perverse way to get to justice.

Consider this: do you really think that criminal would not bother to repay a visit, knowing you let him get away with it,

when you could have solved the problem for other's future griefs? Of course, you don't know what that criminal is going

to do, next time. Hindsight is always what?

This is all for the sake of argument. Right?

Yes, intellectual argument is one of the joys of life. Nothing like a good "what if".

[10-Ring]

After putting myself through college by working loss prevention and staying in the field for a couple of years afterwards I just don't place a lot of value on the lives of thieves. I've worked hard for everything that I have and paid cash, I haven't financed anything a thing and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit and watch while some thug hauls it off. I don't really care about the thieve's family either, not my problem. If I were able to legally protect my property against theft by using deadly force I would. I generally don't leave valuables lying around outside to keep them from being stolen. But if I caught someone trying to steal my car I would do what was necessary to prevent that from happening.

It just seems like the majority of the people here value life a lot more than I do. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't have a lot of hope for a thief rehabilitating themselves. Thieves are most useful as fertilizer. Not saying I would shoot a man for stealing a candybar but if I had the choice of saving a thieves life or getting a free value meal at McDonalds I would be eating a Big Mac, and I don't even like McDonalds.

[sigmtnman]

Just because you like Miami Vice and Jimmy Buffet doesn't mean you need to take those thing personally.

I'd shoot a man for a stealing a pink flamingo, if nothing else but for having bad taste.

[piercedan]

I'd shoot a man for a stealing a pink flamingo, if nothing else but for having bad taste.

Just the fact that he wanted it bad enough to steal it should be enough justification. Then you'd have to get the guy it belonged to just to be sure. Scorched earth policy.

[DaveTN]

You can make all the arguments you want about what you did or what you thought, provided you are willing to wave your 5^th amendments rights and your attorney wants to put you on the stand.

But a jury is going to Judge you on what a “Reasonable Person†would do.

When I saw the story of the guy in Smyrna that opened fire on a guy breaking into his car in his driveway, and a round hit the ground at the feet of his neighbor sitting on his porch across the street, my thoughts were that he would be arrested…. He was. I don’t know how the case turned out, but if he had shot the perp or his neighbor he probably would have been headed to prison.

[bronco302]

I am especially bemused by the Christians who advocate killing over such minor theft. I would've expected some level of compassion and an attempt to help the person.

Compassion comes to those that ask. You need my shirt ask I'll give it to you. If your hungry ask I'll feed you. If you try to take either, it will get ugly.

Joe W.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And what would a reasonable man do? Walk away. Hell No! I earned hard money to get that property and I

have the right to defend it. Must depend on the "reasonable man". I like what is mine. Like piercedan said,

he was willing to break the law and steal. What else is he willing to do? Reasonably speaking, of course. The

only way you are going to stop crime is to stand up against it, not carry around a 200 lb symbol of authority

that wouldn't be there to protect your property, since the courts have opined they don't have any obligation

to do so. Does a reasonable man have a duty to retreat on his own property? Not in TN.

I haven't heard anyone use the 5th Amendment as a tool for tyranny before.

[RobertNashville]

Wow...I'm a bit stunned by those who seem willing to take a life to protect "things"...things that in more than a few cases many would be thrown out in the trash in a few years (i.e. the computer system I paid more than 2K for not many years ago that now isn't worth keeping as a door stop).

Doesn't anyone have insurance anymore?

[Guest MilitiaMan]

Well that boils down to personal feelings and experiences. I wish I could say with a straight face that all life is precious, but I can't. I really feel no remorse for someone who gets killed in the process of victimizing others. But I don't think the take away from that should be that I feel as if death should be punitive, but certainly an option to protect what is rightfully yours. I think that is the misunderstanding here because folks seem unwilling to understand the difference between the two.

Perfectly said.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

Compassion comes to those that ask. You need my shirt ask I'll give it to you. If your hungry ask I'll feed you. If you try to take either, it will get ugly.

Joe W.

AMEN. And yea, I'm a Christian and feel the exact same way. I am charitable, giving etc. Need something and I can give it? It's yours. Try stealing it and taking away from my children or myself and wife? As Joe said, it will get ugly. And fast.

[DaveS]

I do recall a teenager on Ussery Road in Clarksville, while playing "pranks" on another's property, got shot in the knee.

The DA decided not to prosecute. I think a grand jury told him no bill.

I remember that. If I remember right, they were knocking on doors and running or something along those lines.

Dave S

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The owner of the Blackhorse brewery's son and another one or two were out doing nothing good and rattled

an older gentleman. He came out blasting away. Carney decided to not prosecute. I wan't sure about the

Grand Jury part. Kids were where they shouldn't have been and one got a piece of lead in his knee.

[Makiaveli]

I don't see where anyone here identified themselves as Christian, but, since you brought it up, why should they be the only ones held to that expectation?

Several people here are known to be such, as least to me, at least one person has a tag line that would lead one to believe they are such.

As to holding others, I am saying that I would expect them to hold themselves to a higher standard since they have made it known they are such and thus are representing their faith in public. Also, last time I checked, which admittedly has been a while, didn't Jesus advocate forgiveness and compassion etc? I know he advocated for self defense (sell your cloak to buy a sword and the whole failure to give warning makes you as guilty as the enemy and all that), but not out right revenge and vigilantism.

[Makiaveli]

Have you been in that situation?

I'm reminded that this is the internet, once again. We don't know each other. Why would I want you to visit me in prison?

A court has to take into consideration my statements defending my action. I certainly do have the right to defend my family,

property and even an innocent bystander with necessary force, if available and the situation warrants, especially on my

property. You need to understand that I wouldn't go out of my way to get in a scuffle, either.

I think we've had this discussion in the past. If I ever had to use self defense as a reason for my action, I would do so in

a heartbeat. You wouldn't? That thing around your waist isn't a boat anchor, ya know?

Unless I am mistaken, you said you would shoot them because they were stealing your car, not because you felt you were in danger. Killing over property isn't legal in TN. The visitation bit was meant as a joke

Yes I have been in a situation where I pulled the trigger on someone in self-defense. I am very thankful that a miracle occurred in that the gun misfired, he ran off when I called the rifle everything but a decent human being and ran off while I cycled the action for another try. If the police had become involved, I would have told the truth, ie he was trying to open the window and being in Ky at the time that would've been that.

[TMF]

Also, last time I checked, which admittedly has been a while, didn't Jesus advocate forgiveness and compassion etc? I know he advocated for self defense (sell your cloak to buy a sword and the whole failure to give warning makes you as guilty as the enemy and all that), but not out right revenge and vigilantism.

Once again, we're not talking about revenge and vigilantism. We're talking about defending what is yours. I don't like the fact that I can't use a firearm to do that.

Based on your assessment, I shouldn't be able to run down the person and forceably take back my property, since it would require violence to do that. Well, as far as I can tell there isn't a law against not allowing someone to take your property. What's the difference if I have to use my firearm to do it? The fact that he might die as a result? I don't see why that matters. All that should matter is that my property is being taken by force and I'm trying to retrieve it. If I have no other options other than to shoot the person to get it back, I should be allowed to do so. I don't see how that has anything to do with vigilatism or vengeance.

And this last part is not directed at you Makiaveli

And insurance? WTF does that have to do with ANYTHING??? What's mine is effing mine. My insurance won't replace my two vehicles, which are completely paid off and in very good condition with low mileage. No. Insurance will only give me the depreciated value, so that means that I have to go out and buy another new vehicle using the down payment from the insurance, and then pay for the rest. That is at least 10-15K out of pocket to replace it. Or I could use that money to buy a used vehicle, that will undoubtedly be not as reliable as my current one. The point here is, insurance is not in the decision matrix when it comes to protecting my property. What's mine is effing mine. I won't be violated or victimized if I have the means to prevent it. I'm sorry that folks seem to think they are morally superior and extend their judgement based on that. Let me extend my judgement. If you don't want to protect your property you aren't morally superior to me, you are a damn coward.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Unless I am mistaken, you said you would shoot them because they were stealing your car, not because you felt you were in danger. Killing over property isn't legal in TN. The visitation bit was meant as a joke

Yes I have been in a situation where I pulled the trigger on someone in self-defense. I am very thankful that a miracle occurred in that the gun misfired, he ran off when I called the rifle everything but a decent human being and ran off while I cycled the action for another try. If the police had become involved, I would have told the truth, ie he was trying to open the window and being in Ky at the time that would've been that.

Read what I said, again.

Have you been in that situation?

I'm reminded that this is the internet, once again. We don't know each other. Why would I want you to visit me in prison?

A court has to take into consideration my statements defending my action. I certainly do have the right to defend my family,

property and even an innocent bystander with necessary force, if available and the situation warrants, especially on my

property. You need to understand that I wouldn't go out of my way to get in a scuffle, either.

I think we've had this discussion in the past. If I ever had to use self defense as a reason for my action, I would do so in

a heartbeat. You wouldn't? That thing around your waist isn't a boat anchor, ya know?

Before you go and put words in my mouth!