Faith and Handgun Ownership: Interesting Perspective

[Guest WyattEarp]

Had something interesting happen the other day. I was talking with a guy at the VA waiting on a prescription, and the topic somehow came about to guns and 2nd amendment stuff. Anyhow, this fellow, asked me why I felt the need to carry a handgun and have a permit. I told him that there's a lot of people in the world that like to hurt others, cause physical injuries and in some cases, they like to kill people, because they want something (usually money so they can go buy drugs or alcohol and get high/drunk) or they take pleasure in seeing other's suffer, and that I carried for personal protection/self-defense.

He then asked if I had any religious faith. I said sure, I attend church regularly, I believe in God, and gave my life to Christ when I was 14 and accepted Him as my Savior.

He looks me at says, well it sounds like you question your faith. I asked him why he thought that, and he said if I truly believed in Christ, and that He was my Savior, I wouldn't have to carry a gun, that my faith alone should be enough to get me through any situation I might be confronted with, and that if it was my time to go, then it was simply my time to go.

I told him that was his opinion, but I politely scoffed at his suggestion that just because I carry, my faith in Christ is somehow weak or invalid. I wasn't about to tell this man that if someone held a gun to my face and I wasn't carrying, that Jesus wasn't going to come down and save me that right moment, but that retort was wallowing around in my head, but I bit my tongue. Thankfully my prescription was ready, so I politely ended the conversation (extremely thankful for a way out of the conversation, before it headed down a direction I had no desire for it to head down) and bid him good day.

The conversation has stuck with me, and I do have some questions.

In the Bible, it does say

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[TD=class: btext, colspan: 2]Matthew 5:38

An Eye for an Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^g 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

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[TD=class: btext, colspan: 2]Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,^a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother^b will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,^c’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

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I'm not well versed enough in the Bible, to refer to it a verbal discussion or debate face to face, but since I have the resources of the internet, I've done a tad bit of research and found arguments on both sides.

The conversation or the questions haven't changed my opinion about carrying, nor will they, but I thought this was a pretty good topic for discussion here and I'd like to see how the other members on the forum perceive this.

The Bible can be twisted in many ways to conform to any person's or group's ideals and philosophy and each of us interprets it in our ways. There is no right or wrong answer to this thread, I'm just curious on opinions and perceptions and what other's thoughts are.

Arguments for Self-Defense in Correlation with adhering to the Bible

The Bible and self-defense

Biblical Self-Defense: What does the Bible say about self-defense? Bible study about self-defense questions: Can a Christian own a gun? What do the Scriptures say about using lethal force for self-protection?

Command Briefs: Bible Affirms Our Right to Self-Defense

self-defense and turning the other cheek

Does God Believe in Gun Control?

http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/thesis/spelman/spelman.pdf

A very thought provoking article on Christianity and Guns

http://www.savetheguns.com/PDF_Files/bibleguncontrol.pdf

Arguments against Self-Defense that implies it goes against the Bible

Common Gunsense A blog to advocate for sensible gun legislation: Guns and religion

I was very hard pressed to find many arguments that claimed the Bible was in fact against self-defense, but I may not have been looking in the right area.

[BrasilNuts]

Eye for an eye...

The Bible doesn't say if they want to kill you offer them a knife.

Murder...

Self defense is not murder.

[daddyo]

Oh, how they like to try and "prove" to us that we have no faith if we don't let Jesus swoop down and save us from every danger we encounter. The dude was merely trying to invalidate your faith. Like Jesus said, shake the dust from your sandals and move on. Sounds like you did just that.

[Schadenfreude]

I would have asked him if he wore a seat belt.

[TMF]

I don't see how believing in Christ somehow protects you or your family. That logic suggests that bad things only happen to people of faiths other than Christianity. Christ himself was murdered. I think he is confusing personal security with the security of one's eternal soul.

[zenman]

I am reminded of this: A man is sitting on his porch as flood waters rise. A woman floats by in a boat, asking if the man needs help. "No, thank you," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The waters rise higher, sending the man upstairs. A raft full of people floats by his second story window. "Get in," they say, "there's plenty of room." "No thanks," says the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." The flood waters keep rising, pushing the man up to the roof. A helicopter swoops in, lowering its ladder for the man. "Thanks anyway," shouts the man, "I'm trusting in the Lord." Finally, the man is swept away in the torrent and drowns. At the gates of Heaven, the man asks God, "Why didn't you save me?" "What do you mean?'' replies God, "I sent two boats and a helicopter."

[peejman]

I don't think either of the verses you quoted address defending one's self against a potentially lethal threat. I'm not a Bible scholar, so I can't go tit-for-tat with those who like to do that sort of thing. I do know that virtually any written document can be quoted out of context to illustrate virtually any point of view.

I like to think that God gave me the desire to preserve my life and the lives of my loved ones, the tools to do it with, and the intelligence to know when to, and when not to, use them.

I've heard the argument that giving your life to Christ means giving up all control. When that comes up, I'm reminded of this... A blonde is in dire financial straights. Her only way to keep her family together is to win the lottery, so she prays about it constantly. After every day that goes by and she doesn't win, she redoubles her prayers. A week goes by and she begs and pleads for help. Finally one day she's at the end of her rope and walks to the edge of a cliff. Suddenly the clouds part, a blinding light shines down, and a booming voice from the heavens says.... "BUY A TICKET!".

[Will Carry]

I don't think it is a sin to protect yourself. I carry too.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Will Carry

[Guest uzzi]

Wyatt -

A few things come to mind. First of all, you have been a believer and you say "I'm not well versed enough in the Bible." Dude, what have you been doing all these years? I never understand this about my brothers in the faith! Make the Word your life! Read it, listen to it and study it and don't take anyone's word for any doctrine. Find it out for yourself! It looks like you are doing this, though. So good job!

You must also understand the doctrine of "free will." In order for God to give man free will he must allow one to hurt another. Fair? No, but everyone has hurt someone at some point. So, knowing that men may choose to hurt me, and that God will allow them except for certains time where He divinely interverns, which I believe he does and has many times in my life, I choose as to defend myself. And what kind of man of God would I be if I allowed through my own neglegence someone to hurt my family?

In terms of turning the other cheek, not repaying an eye for an eye, those are completely fales arguments for someone defending themselves. I bet this guy you spoke to, if someone was breaking into his house, he would call the Police. So it is okay for someone else to carry a gun to protect him on his behalf, though he himself will not. Maybe if HE had faith, he would just let the criminals have their way and do nothing about it. I doubt it. Defending yourself, and carrying a weapon does not nullify or contradict your faith.

[G27]

I don't suppose he caught the irony of sitting at the VA while questioning your faith for not relying on the Lord to protect you, eh?

I mean, the NT is full of stories of folks being healed by their faith, why should he have to see doctors?

OH! You mean God gave us a brain for a reason?

[Caster]

I was born and raised in church, I don't go anymore but I believe now as much as I ever have.

Having said that, I have one, and ONLY one response to people that pose that to me:

On the day of judgement every knee will bow and every mouth will confess. I will have to give an account of myself to the final judge. The final judge isn't a filthy human, and I don't owe any human an explanation as to what I have believed.

Also, God knows my heart and he knows there is NO blasphemy here: No god worth serving would ask me stand there and be killed or WORSE watch as someone I care about gets hurt or killed.

I want to stand before God and be able to say that I have never hurt anyone but I'm not going through life so scared of it that I wouldn't act to save myself or the life of another. IMHO, The instant you make the decision to hurt/kill innocent people, you forfeit your right to live as well. If God doesn't like that, he's not only capable, but more than welcome to change my mind for me. Funny that he hasn't seen fit to do it yet.

[MacGyver]

I've spent some time here over the years as well. When I was single, it didn't really matter; this whole question was just a philosophical debate. But, when I got married the issue certainly changed for me. It was strengthened even more when I had kids. I think as a Christian, I have a responsibility to protect and provide for my family. I can't do that if I'm not here because some thug killed or seriously injured me to take what I have.

I've carried everyday since the day I got my permit 15 years ago. Because of my line of work, I have a price on my head from two nations and one person who is currently on trial for war crimes at the Hague. I don't really lose much sleep over those threats. I do lose sleep about not being able to adequately protect or provide for my family.

There is no reconciliation needed here for me. My faith, my perceived responsibility to my family and my decision to train and carry as a part of that all fit within my worldview.

[Smith]

Some people know just enough to be dangerous ... like the old guy.

The two verses you used are often used and usually completley out of context. As far as the murder verse, the Hebrew is very clear about what constitutes murder. Killing, war, death penalty etc were all different words and would never be confused with the term for murder. It is an English translation "error" that is not often addressed that casues the problems.

The forgiveness principle in the first verse had to do with a cultural understanding dealing with the Romans in Jewish culture and how a slave with spiritual "freedom" should respond to a culture that had not embraced their new found spiritual freedom. IT was bridging the gap between being spiritually free while being culturally enslaved.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Smith

[mav]

I think as a Christian, I have a responsibility to protect and provide for my family.

Your thinking is correct.

1 Timothy 5:8

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

[analog_kidd]

I would have asked him why Peter felt the need to carry a sword while he was in Jesus' presence. There were bad guys back then that people needed to have protection against, just like today. When Jesus was sending out the desciples, He told them to bring along a sword. I feel that if guns were available back then, He may have said to carry them instead. The fact is, a sword was the most effective personal weapon at the time. Plus, I think it is illegal to carry a sword around in public today, but we are allowed to carry a gun. We are instructed to be meek, but not doormats.

[ted]

I shall always protect my family

Edited October 11, 2011 by ted

[Tedro2022]

Don't quote me on it, I'd have to do some digging around, but I'm pretty certain there is a verse that says something along the lines of you're able to protect yourself from being killed to the point that taking another life is acceptable.

That said, the commandment: "Thou shall not kill" pretty much covers not being able to walk around and just off people.

I'll dig around and see what I can find.

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[Guest dfsixstring]

I carry and I am an ordained minister and elder. This guy probably truly has convictions about guns, but we're to each one work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.036860,-86.547322

[Tedro2022]

Exodus chapter 21:12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. 13 However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death."

Exodus 22: 2 “If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed."

Again, I'm no preacher, but it seems that self defense is covered. But you better be prepared to answer God on that day of judgement.

My thought is, God will send for me when he's ready. Until that day, I have every responsibility to make sure that I make it to that day.

Just my couple pennies worth...

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[mav]

I carry and I am an ordained minister and elder. This guy probably truly has convictions about guns, but we're to each one work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

TGO did have a member (I won't say former member, because he is still here in spirit) who was a pastor and avid gun owner, Mousegunner. Unfortunately, he passed away earlier this year.

[Caster]

Don't quote me on it, I'd have to do some digging around, but I'm pretty certain there is a verse that says something along the lines of you're able to protect yourself from being killed to the point that taking another life is acceptable.

That said, the commandment: "Thou shall not kill" pretty much covers not being able to walk around and just off people.

I'll dig around and see what I can find.

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You gotta remember too, the business of "Thou shalt not kill" is taken WAAYYY out of context because of a poor translation to our language. As rear in the Hebrew bible [a much more accurate account and translation] it is read as "Thou shalt not commit MURDER" Big difference. Really big.

[MacGyver]

Mousegunner also wrote a great article on gun ownership and self defense from a Christian perspective. I'll see if I can find it.

Edited October 11, 2011 by MacGyver

[MacGyver]

Here's a posthumous reprint of the article. Marshall was a great asset to this forum who will be sorely missed.

Self Defense - A Christian Viewpoint

[Guest spoolie]

If you don't believe in that nonsense you have nothing to worry about.

[R_Bert]

Here's a posthumous reprint of the article. Marshall was a great asset to this forum who will be sorely missed.

Self Defense - A Christian Viewpoint

Thank you, for posting that resource. I had not seen Marshall's take on it. It was well written.

I added it to my 2A favorites

Bert (who unashamedly believes the nonsense cover to cover)