Guidelines Regarding Law Enforcement Threads on TGO

[MacGyver]

At the end of the day, I don't really care one way or the other about this rule because I don't typically bash cops and I don't start bashing threads so it won't affect me, but the same sentence could be used for many threads on TGO.  

 

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all gays with a flaming homo brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all muslims with a crazy jihadist brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all democrats with a "they are driving this county into the ground brush"......ok, I got ahead of myself a little on this one, but I think you get the idea.   :pleased: 

 

It seems a bit arbitrary to me that this is the only topic being addressed.  At the end of the day, I think this is a place where people want to spend time because they can discuss these items.  I would argue that one of the reasons many like to discuss these types of items here is because we do have such a large membership and we enjoy the verbal debate with people for who the most part we know where they stand and in most cases respect enough to agree to disagree. 

 

It's the Staff's call to how they want to handle it, but it should be applied across the board, not just to "bad cops".

I've banned more than one person for not being able to refer to gay people without the use of a slur.  There's a famous post by one of our moderating team relating to the tendency to profile people who may look middle eastern and the problems associated with it. 

 

The DNC doesn't need our help.  They've yet to meet a sure thing that they can't screw up.

 

But your point stands.  We can discuss big issues.  We've got a lot of diverse opinions.  But, if you're just here to stir stuff up, we're going to take notice because it's affecting the community at large.

[Guest sL1k]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mac.

[Chucktshoes]

Everything old is new again. Anyone who has been around these parts a while should remember how this issue has come up a couple times before. It appears to me that while y'all are giving a general notice that this is becoming an issue again, you may be using a softer touch than in times past. I appreciate it as I think it provides direction and yet still allows for open discussion. In the past when this has become an issue the subject of LE/.gov misbehavior was pretty much verboten as a subject.

The way I am reading this guidance is that this question should be asked: Does the thread foster productive discussion regarding LE/government policy and how it effects the population at large or here in TN, or does it serve no real purpose other than to paint LE in a negative light? If the latter is the case than it isn't a useful topic.

[MacGyver]

The way I am reading this guidance is that this question should be asked: Does the thread foster productive discussion regarding LE/government policy and how it effects the population at large or here in TN, or does it serve no real purpose other than to paint LE in a negative light? If the latter is the case than it isn't a useful topic.

Exactly.

[ArmyBrat61]

There are many facets to this discussion and to the broader subject of topics that we, as adults, feel passionate about. I look at the "LE threads" with a critical eye for whatever details are known and are proven true. When the Boston bombing happened, I was appaled at the military approach/vehicles/tactics involved because it reminded me of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Both happened outside TN but affect us here, should we not discuss those events? Of course we should. Do we call for the participating LE agency members heads on pikes? Of course not. I do not paint LE with any broad brush, as that treatment was metted out to my beloved Army during/after Vietnam, but the abuses of the "few" are becoming more and more commonplace across the country. We live in a well connected, communication society. Perceived slights/abuse/brutality are in the " instant upload to social media" arena. I believe it would be a dis-service to squelch or appear to censor discussion of events from outside the state borders. We are adults and gentlemen. The trolls and trouble makers should not be given a platform to stir the sh*t pot or, by their existence, prevent us from genuine discourse.  It has been stated in previous posts that we police ourselves. I ask the Moderators to continue to moderate yet allow honest discussion. Gentlemen, I thank you for your efforts on this board. I quite enjoy reading, disagreeing and sharing with those of like mind and spirit and I hope that it continues unabated.

[Garufa]

Chuckt just stated more or less what I've been trying to find the words to say. 

 

We must have discussions of LE behavior regardless of what State it happens in when it comes to 2nd Amendment issues and/or seemingly unjustified situations regarding firearms.  Don't forget many, many millions in this country, including a large segment of the government feel that only LE should have access to firearms.  It is something that needs to be addressed here, there and everywhere.

 

I do agree that random cop-bashing has little value here and I steer clear of it but one thing to understand is that a huge portion of this forum is dedicated to bitching and moaning about the government.  The police represent the government (let's not go into who pays everyones salaries) so it's not hard for some to get caught up the in frenzy.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Garufa

[mikegideon]

Everything old is new again. Anyone who has been around these parts a while should remember how this issue has come up a couple times before. It appears to me that while y'all are giving a general notice that this is becoming an issue again, you may be using a softer touch than in times past. I appreciate it as I think it provides direction and yet still allows for open discussion. In the past when this has become an issue the subject of LE/.gov misbehavior was pretty much verboten as a subject.

The way I am reading this guidance is that this question should be asked: Does the thread foster productive discussion regarding LE/government policy and how it effects the population at large or here in TN, or does it serve no real purpose other than to paint LE in a negative light? If the latter is the case than it isn't a useful topic.

 

I don't hold any cop responsible for misdirected policy. We have as much or more of that than the rare dickish cop. 

[Chucktshoes]

I don't hold any cop responsible for misdirected policy. We have as much or more of that than the rare dickish cop.

I wouldn't hold a cop, acting correctly, responsible for bad policy either but, more often than not, bad policy/law provides opportunity for a dickish cop to act like a dick. That is mostly how bad policy/law is exposed for what it is, when those prone to abuse it do so.

[RED333]

Not my house, yalls rules.

It is just hard to play when ya dont know all the rules.

So if it is productive it is OK, just no bashing?

Now if I find a story of a LOE stepping over the bounds I will post the story.

Leave it up to yall to keep it clean, for info is info, good, bad or ugly.

[Guest nra37922]

At the end of the day, I don't really care one way or the other about this rule because I don't typically bash cops and I don't start bashing threads so it won't affect me, but the same sentence could be used for many threads on TGO.  

 

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all gays with a flaming homo, liberal brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all muslims with a crazy jihadist brush

But, it's too easy and not at all fair to the dialog to paint all democrats with a "they are driving this county into the ground brush"......ok, I got ahead of myself a little on this one, but I think you get the idea.   :pleased: 

 

It seems a bit arbitrary to me that this is the only topic being addressed.  At the end of the day, I think this is a place where people want to spend time because they can discuss these items.  I would argue that one of the reasons many like to discuss these types of items here is because we do have such a large membership and we enjoy the verbal debate with people whom for the most part we know where they stand and in most cases respect enough to agree to disagree. 

 

It's the Staff's call to how they want to handle it, but it should be applied across the board, not just to "bad cops".

Is is still ok to bash Voldemort?

[DaveS]

Is is still ok to bash Voldemort?

Until he comes and sues all of us for slander! Right huh?

 

DaveS

[Sam1]

All,

 

I wanted to take a few minutes to discuss the anti-law enforcement trend I've been seeing a lot of recently in threads here on TGO.  The heart of the matter is that with almost 20,000 members we have a diverse community, and these threads are affecting the sense of community that both our staff and our core members work so hard to sustain.  As such, I'd like for people to be careful in expressing their opinions, and check their motivations when it comes to posting topics about interactions with law enforcement. 

 

Here is a short list of guidelines that we'll be following:

 

1. If it's not happening here in Tennessee, then I'm not sure it needs to be posted here.  An open carrier getting the "harassment" they were seeking by officers out in Seattle isn't news. 
2. On the subject of open carry getting questioned/harassed/detained by law enforcement.  I have no doubt that these people believe in what they're doing.  Ideologically, I agree with them to an extent - in that I think I should be able to carry where I want in whatever manner that I choose.  That said, discretion is a highly underrated virtue, and that's something that seems lacking in these stories.  As a general rule, these threads aren't really newsworthy.  They're sideshows with cops doing their jobs.  Do some of them stumble through it?  Yes.  Do some of them display a more aggressive attitude than necessary?  I don't know.  Maybe?  You decided express your first amendment rights through the second amendment - you're making a statement with a deadly weapon.  You should probably expect law enforcement to be on edge in 2013.  All that said, if you want a place to post open carry stories - again if it's not in Tennessee - go over to opencarry.org or any of the other places that'll give you all the response you seek.
3. We do encourage legitimate discourse - especially when it's local.  I can't give concrete guidelines, but we'll be asking staff to use their discretion in making these judgment calls.
4. For those members that only seem to be here to have a platform to voice their anti-government stuff, don't be surprised when we give you the opportunity to find another place to have those conversations.  This is a gun board.  While we like to talk about a lot of stuff, content needs to have at least a tangential connection to the firearms community.

I understand that not every case is black and white, and that there is some room for disagreement.  This is exactly the reason we have selected the moderating staff we have.  If we shut down one of your threads, feel free to PM one of us about it.  Our moderating team is always happy to back up our reasoning, and we have reopened  threads in the past.  Give us a good reason to reopen a thread, and we will.

 

There are things that concern all of us.  The increasing militarization and paramilitarization of law enforcement should be concerning to everyone.  The growing surveillance state is a problem.  Bring good discourse and we can discuss big issues.

 

But, there are a few people on here with personal axes to grind.  I'm sorry.  This just isn't the place for that.  Are there some bad cops?  Sure.  Are there some that just come to work and dial it in?  Sure.  Are there people who do that where you work?  You bet there are.  I bet you wouldn't appreciate being lumped in with them. 

 

There are a lot of members of law enforcement on this site.  A lot.  Stop to think about it, and you'll realize quickly that the vast majority of them are on our side of the issue.  They see good citizens able to protect themselves and their families as making their jobs as police officers a lot easier.  There really are people who want to take your guns.  Your average cop walking a beat isn't one of them.

 

I know that a lot of people are stressed right now.  We're 4 years nine months into an 8-year administration that really does hate us as a group.  There are a ton of new shooters out there competing for ammo right now.  Did you know that a little over one in four legally purchased firearms in America has been bought in the last five years?  Scalpers aside, there's a lot of competition for ammo out there right now.  I know people aren't shooting a lot, and that in and of itself is stressful.  This is a time where we need to pull together as a community, not fracture it.

 

I'm going to leave this thread open so that our community can discuss it.  I'm specifically putting it in general chat before moving it to announcements so that it can be discussed.  Subjects like this are tough, and we recognize that.  There isn't a firm rule that can be set.  Yet, we simply ask that people think about what they post, watch your tone and check your motivations for doing so. 

 

We appreciate everyone's support in this matter.

 

Agree with #2, #1 not so much.  2a is nationwide, not isolated to TN.

 

As far as #2 goes, I wish they would start giving out tickets for something when the people are obviously antagonizing the police when they have three cameras out and rolling, while they open carry down the sidewalk at 3am taking pictures of a federal building.  Claiming it's not suspicious and they are just exercising their rights, those people need a good throat punch.

[Dustbuster]

I like the fact that this site is a fun site to participate in,lots of wisdom,knowledge,with minimal personal attacks.We all have a passion for firearms and seem to enjoy interacting with others. I thinks its great we can talk 300 AAC and flip over and talk about something silly to break up the day.Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing when it comes to forums as long as no one gets freely blasted for ignorant reason IMHO. Most of the LE community has thick skin to start,although some guys forget if someone picks on you its cause your liked and not because your disliked,After all most folks wont communicate w someone they don't like,but a common enemy also brings people closer.

 This is also a forum where you can pay for membership, and lifetime membership at that.I think its pretty cool that there's so many lifetime members.I wouldn't pay a buck to support  some of the other sites that are just well, forum sites. Having lifers says a lot about this place.Having attorneys,cpa's,cops,and docs on here says a lot as does having drivers,axemen gunsmiths and more,Awesome diversity.

Some of the police related discussions can definitely start a fire, educate or just tell someone how things work, contrary to some belief. Ill share when i can,as most of the subject matter isn't sacred or confidential.Some people just want to know and some have ulterior motive.I think a lot of the other LE guys feel the same way,and express, some will help, some will just chill,after all were all human. Ive found this site has some great information and is completely positive for any gun owner.form match postings to rants about LGS's to giving someone something just to be nice.All in all that's what a real community is.If ya have to moderate harsh negative im behind it as long as opinion isn't trumped for other reason...I think being able to help, read.ponder,guess, and contribute is crucial to a good community.Bashing just because, w no reason, isnt conducive to a fun atmosphere. Pointing out bad cops or screwed up officers may not be the most desirable thing to read about, but heck, if its not on one wall,it'll make it to the next in time. ...enjoy 

Edited September 17, 2013 by Dustbuster

[MacGyver]

Is is still ok to bash Voldemort?

The very fact that you can't type his name in without having voldemort substituted in should tell you exactly how we feel about giving this guy another second of airtime.

[Sam1]

Until he comes and sues all of us for slander! Right huh?

 

DaveS

 

That would be entertaining, I bet some of the board lawyers would give us free counsel just to argue with that idiot in court.

[MacGyver]

Chuckt just stated more or less what I've been trying to find the words to say.

We must have discussions of LE behavior regardless of what State it happens in when it comes to 2nd Amendment issues and/or seemingly unjustified situations regarding firearms. Don't forget many, many millions in this country, including a large segment of the government feel that only LE should have access to firearms. It is something that needs to be addressed here, there and everywhere.

I do agree that random cop-bashing has little value here and I steer clear of it but one thing to understand is that a huge portion of this forum is dedicated to bitching and moaning about the government. The police represent the government (let's not go into who pays everyones salaries) so it's not hard for some to get caught up the in frenzy.

All people need to do is ask whether or not they're adding to the discussion and the community or distracting from it. If the answer is the latter, then our general position is that they either need better rhetoric, a better position or should simply refrain from posting.

[TripleDigitRide]

10-4

[Raoul]

Well this was bound to happen. As the old Chinese curse says:

"May you live in interesting times."

[mav]

What worries me is moderator discretion without any concrete rules established.  For example,  I had one of my posts edited and was publicly dressed-down for the use of two incredibly mild pejoratives (McLame and Grahamnetsy) several months back.  I got really ticked-off considering the rest of the forum was loaded with pejoratives, and some were very tasteless, but nothing was done.  Will the same thing happen under the new proposals?  I would think so.  I could easily see how certain moderators might misconstrue a poster's intent in a post and edit or delete their post, or even worse, boot the poster.  I respect and understand how you have to stand behind your moderators, but this can be very tricky, especially if it is applied with impartial treatment across the board, which I don't believe it can be considering we do have cliques/favorites within the community.  Also, moderators are just like everyone else; they can make mistakes too.

 

In regards to the anti-LEO stuff, it doesn't really bother me.  This community is very diverse.  We have some that are anti-LEO, some bleed blue, others are anti-government, and we have some who believe more government is the answer to all of our problems.  Regarding other issues such as religion, we have some that are devout Christians, and we have some that defecate themselves even mentioning Christianity.  We also have moonbats, dumbasses, smartasses, and plain ol' jackasses as well.  Any regular contributor knows who these people are, and most of us know that you will never convince these people that their line of thinking could be wrong.

 

Do I find content insulting or offensive at times?  Of course I do.  However, I realize that the person who is being antagonistic is just some guy/girl sitting behind their keyboard whom I will probably never meet, more than likely they are full of it, and they have absolutely no influence over my life.  Some might say this creates discord, but I would say that they need to get thicker skin because not everyone is going to agree with you, and some may do it in a tasteless manner.

 

Ultimately, you are going to do what you want.  This is your forum of which, I am a guest, and my opinion holds very little value.  Even though I disagree with your intent, I will do my best to play by the rules, even though they aren't very clear to me.  Assuming these rules go in effect, I would like to suggest that any reprimand, unless it is an egregious violation of the TOS, be made through a PM.  In my mind, it is much more professional, and it can go a long way towards diffusing any ill will that a poster has towards the TGO staff.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's not for me to decide, so I guess someone had a problem with something forming around this one topic. Sometimes,

people tend to misunderstand what someone said in one of their posts, sometimes it's painfully clear. Just me, but if

there's a problem, then just ban the posting about cops, in general. Then ban commenting about Obamacare. Then

ban something else. Nothing more than a point, Mac. My halfway forte is politics, philosophy and the minor is guns, in

general. If I am one of the offenders, it would be nice if they would contact me and let me know what I said that pushed

that button.

 

Maybe if someone misunderstood, might they ask for clarification before they get their feelings hurt? Bunches of threads

I don't even get involved in because I just change the channel. I never understood why people don't just change the channel,

of thinking about something and asking, either on the thread, or PM'ing. I don't know. Must be an internet phenomena.

 

I know one thing. I do get a bit frustrated having to explain to some that I'm not some kind of cop hater. There are cops

on this forum who know me and know better. I just enjoy having lively discussions like I hope to see others who do ,also.

[Guest TresOsos]

What I would like to know first is, have the Moderators/Admins actually had complaints from LEO's who are members on the board about bashing in threads?

 

 

[Dolomite_supafly]

I can tell you for a fact I have, on dozens of occassions, edited out the creative spellings after the rule came out. Did I miss some? I am sure I did but I should not have to read every posts here to see if we are following the rules. And don't think that if it was missed that you got one over on us because you didn't. You just showed that you don't have respect for the community and the rules we use to rule it.

 

The biggest reason why we do this is not to save us from each other but to keep those who might look in and see a SMALL segment of us and make the assumption every member of TGO is what they are seeing. We have had some pretty bad stuff said as of late and it contributed nothing to the conversation. Imagine if some of it were quoted? It would look bad on our community as a whole.

 

One must ask what the purpose in posting it is. If a person is posting it as "proof" that there are bad cops out there then we don't need it because we all know there are bad cops out there. I welcome conversations about 2A or LE but if it starts out as someone posting it to make a point or support their agenda I will likely report it for all the staff to weigh in on.

 

And I will say the first person who decides to spam the board with tons of negative LE posts about LE inside Tennessee will likely have those posts deleted. Save yourself all the effort and just don't do it. You know who you are.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

"...to make a point or support their agenda I will likely report it for all the staff to weigh in on." Not trying to be argumentative,

Gordon, but I thought any thread was about making a point, of some kind. Now, as to support their agenda, I hope you mean

someone who might be attempting to disparage a large group, rather than focus on an individual with a certain problem.

 

I may have misunderstood you because I try to make a point with every post I make. But I only go out of my way to disparage

public officials, who are subject to that scrutiny.

[Guest TresOsos]

Thank you for answering question number 1.

 

Now for question number 2.

 

Is this new policy/tone being instituted because of those complaints.

[mav]

I can tell you for a fact I have, on dozens of occassions, edited out the creative spellings after the rule came out. Did I miss some? I am sure I did but I should not have to read every posts here to see if we are following the rules. And don't think that if it was missed that you got one over on us because you didn't. You just showed that you don't have respect for the community and the rules we use to rule it.

 

 

Thank you.  You just proved my point and my concern.  There was no rule regarding pejorative spellings.  It was a suggestion from TGODavid, which you interpreted as a rule and took a heavy-handed approach in enforcement, at least in my case.  I was also informed by the administrator that no one should be editing other people's posts.  To state that I have no respect for the community and the rules you use to rule is a bunch of crap.  I have tried to be good standing member of this community, which I am certain that others will attest to.