AR Hype

[Moped]

I understand Grimel's point. At one time and maybe still now, the Military was looking to move away form the 7.62x51 in favor of the .300 Winchester, because it's power and performance at 1000 yard was superior. I suspect that has taken a back seat to the two wars we've entered into in Iraq and Afghanistan, though it would seem to me that now is the time to be testing a new sniper rifle.

I'd throw another caveat until the meddled mess, by saying the AK and AR platforms are really doing two different tasks. The AK is designed to be used by anyone with as little training time as possible. It's cheap and easy to produce. The accuracy was everything the Soviets wanted from it, because they only wanted to keep our heads down while they brought in the Artillery. 3 to 4 inch groups at a hundred meters were plenty acceptable for this mission.

The AR was designed to be light and portable while delivering accurate shots out to 300 meters (600 meters for you Marines out there), which allows us to fire and maneuver on the enemy. The U.S. Military as always taken pride in it's ability to shoot accurately. We also take great pride in not causing a lot of collateral damage, unlike the Soviets whose basic doctrine was to blast large chucks of earth to smithereens.

Honestly though the rack grade M16a1s that I trained with and carried in Desert Storm were about as accurate as the AK47s I've shot. I don't consider them to be overly complicated as far as maintenance goes either, though they are harder to clean than an AK. And I think with the advent of the AK on our shores, we will wring out much more accuracy from it. As more ex service members started buying ARs and working on them, their accuracy improved. They are a much better weapon than what was first issued in Vietnam.

Now back to the original comparison of the AR to an M1 Carbine. Placing a M4 side by side with a M1 Carbine, I think there is no comparison. I'd take the M4 hands down over the carbine. The sights are better for one. The M4 shoots a superior round to the M1 Carbine, because it shoots flatter, faster and for a much longer range. I bet that the M4 shoots cooler over sustained shooting conditions as well. Go shoot 300 hundred rounds as fast as you can down each one of them and see which is easier to grip afterward. That's important in a fight. I also suspect the 5.56x45 round deals far more damage than the .30 Carbine at a longer range as well. Maintenance wise, the M1 is maybe a little easier to keep clean just because it doesn't have all those little crevasses to negotiate like the M-4 does, but as long as the M4 is kept clean it will function perfectly in most all environments.

The M1 Carbine was a fine weapon for what it was called on to do (arm cooks, admin and supply personnel) with something better than a pistol, but it was never meant to be a true battle rifle. The M16 and it's offspring was and is.

And Gregintenn your opinion counts too. If you don't particularly care for them, there's a lot of other stuff to shot out there. I like them all!

Edited December 14, 2009 by Moped

[Guest cjr]

He is pontificating without engaging his brain. The AR is far from my favorite rifle, but, that doesn't change the reality of it's function and capability.

You are just confused.

Then it's the 93 that is the 223. Don't really buy into the lighter ammo thing. If I have to shoot someone 2-3 times with ammo that allows me to carry 2-3 times the ammo I don't see the advantage.

They will meet it as well as a rack grade AR.

Now you are trying to swap criteria and trying to blur lines. You said the 308 is a more accurate round. It isn't; service rifle matches prove that. The snipers aren't going to swap 308 for 223 not due to a lack of accuracy, but, for a lack of down range performance. Again, stepping up to a 30-378 doesn't ensure accuracy, it gets more power. Last I checked, the 6.5-284 was the darling of the long range bug eye group.

You are mistaking power for accuracy. AR's are an accurate platform, more so than the M14 (308). The lower recoil just makes shooting it easier.

Sorry,what is pontificating?

[kesava]

The 5.56 round is what makes the AR. It is accurate, has little recoil, light(you can carry for more ammunition than say 7.62x39) and is very effective.

The AR is the most proven method of getting as many of those projectiles going in the direction of the enemy in the shortest length of time, period. Also factor in the lightness of the rifle, itself (greatly reduces fatigue if one needs to carry it for a long period of time).

So, are there more effective loads? Yes, .308 and 7.62x39 come to mind. Are there lighter rifles? Yes, most 22LRs will do. Are there simpler rifles? One again, the answer is yes, get out your granddad's single shot bolt action. Is there a more accurate load? Get some .308. Is there a more reliable weapon? Try a bolt action or an AK. Is there a round that has lower recoil? Get yourself some 22LR. And lastly, is there a weapon system that combines all these criteria together in a better way? HELL NO!!!!

I like the grendel. Gets a little closer to the .308 power, low(er) recoil and portability.

[Paletiger13]

Lefties can shoot an AR that is made for right handed people by the way. My ole lady loves my AR and she is a lefty. No issues, and her being a woman she still doesn't whine as much as some guys. Lol

[Smith]

Do you realize nothing in this quote is overly accurate?

No, if we were utilitarian we'd all have a NEF single shot with a 12ga, 223, and 308 barrels.

Of course the AR with a .223, 6.8spc, and 22lr uppers would cover about the same things.

Evidently you haven't grasped the concept of smilies.

[BryanP]

My main complaint is that I'm tired of seeing little else other than articles about the almighty AR in all the gun mags I read.

The AR and the 1911 are extremely popular firearms. Magazines write about things that interest as many readers as possible in order to drive sales. While I own both an AR and a 1911, I tend to skim past the Yet Another Article about them.

[leroy]

Last week, my father purchased a Colt HBAR Match Target. Today, he brought it over to my house. ....I don't see what all the hype is about. I couldn't get past the ugly factor, the spring rattling inside the stock, or the nutcracker trigger. ... I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Greg:_________

I too can symphathize with you on the funny and ugly factor of the AR.

I USED to make fun of them myself. I have fooled with guns and reloading most all my adult life; but I never owned an AR type rifle until we built one about 6 months ago. The things that peaked my interest in them were my old buddies that fooled with them that kept telling me how well they worked; along with the abject fear and villification of these tools by the anti-gun nuts. Those two factors came together to cause me to want to try these guys out.

Having said all that; I am proud to say that after fooling a bit with my carbine type flattop AR and handloads; I am a confirmed AR person. They are a great thing. Extremely accurate and a mechanical marvel.

Think about this: (I know this will offend some; it's not meant too.) At its heart; the AR is nothing but a pile of parts made by a myriad of manufacturers on CNC machinery and assembled into a firearm that is stupendously accurate (just as accurate as my 223 bolt gun) and very reliable for a semi-auto rifle. The rifle is about 36 inches long and weighs about 7.5 lbs. My bolt gun is longer and weighs about 10 lbs without the scope. This alone makes the AR a great thing.

Also, as others have already said; the AR is the lego toy for the grown man. There is nothing that you can imagine that is not available for the AR. There is a treasuretrove of parts out there to make your AR anything you can imagine (and some things you cant).

Also, the idea of the "other caliber" AR's is a great thing in itself. Everything from the 50 Beowulf to the 6.5 Grendel (with all their brothers) is truly a great thing; bringing great firepower and increased leathality to the AR platform.

After fooling with these things for a little while; I see why so many folks are true believers in the AR concept. I am too.

I invite you to fool a little bit more with them and think on the genius of those who developed and refined this tool. They are, indeed, what i have called them; "geniuses" indeed!!

All this from an former unbelieving Philistine and SKEPTIC!!!.

I readily confess before all my brothers: "I have seen the light!!"

Kind regards and Merry Christmas.

LEROY

[Guest malbolja]

How hard is it to change calibers on your M1 Carbine? Or to put a bull barrel on it and then switch back? The convertibility and modularity of the AR are it's strongest points (for me).

There are many, many aftermarket triggers for the AR. If you don't like that one, try another.

As for "ugly", handsome is as handsome does.

Sorry to hear that you couldn't master the "complex" controls of an AR, maybe a club would be simple enough?

[flyanything]

Try a Lefty AR sometime if you get a chance. They are designed for left handers. Like a Stag Model - L.

[gregintenn]

You can buy a STAG AR-15, it's for a lefty, Also you can turn a AR-15 into a tack-driver, just as accurate as a bolt gun, you can have muti-calibers, the AR will do it all !!!

...but you can't drink an AR pretty, and you can't drink a fat girl thin!!!! I just don't care for them. It appears that I'm the only one. I guess I'll go back to pontificating.

[leroy]

...but you can't drink an AR pretty, and you can't drink a fat girl thin!!!!I just don't care for them. It appears that I'm the only one. I guess I'll go back to pontificating.

Greg:________

Dont feel bad. They are ugly when compared to walnut and blue steel rifles. Kinda the same way a Glock or other plastic pistol is when compared to an old smith, colt, or early ruger.

Kind regards.

LEROY

[gregintenn]

Greg:________

Dont feel bad. They are ugly when compared to walnut and blue steel rifles. Kinda the same way a Glock or other plastic pistol is when compared to an old smith, colt, or early ruger.

Kind regards.

LEROY

I'm telling you...once you've held an antique Winchester, 99 Savage, any fine double, etc., up to your shoulder, the plastic G.I. Joe toys just won't compare. It's like comparing a 63 Corvette to a UPS truck.

[Guest GunTroll]

Lets all keep in mind this is nothing more than opinions.

gregintenn, I'm with you. Ugly compared to classic rifles with fine wood. Cartridge fails at many things but exceeds in others. Mainly the bullet sucks. If the Mill would get away from FMJ and go with a soft point design it would open up on a BG more and therefore be more effective.

Not everyone can afford a fancy double rifle, or classic bolt gun. You can buy a plain Jane AR and build on it slowly. And when you build on it it usually doesn't need a smith to do it. (my main problem with them! ) They do feel "modern" or plastic-y. They are user friendly and not bashing our soldiers but simply is good for some of these guys.

I've had two and now have none. I'm working on building myself another for the hell of it! I'm thinking it will end up like this.....

[Warbird]

I'm telling you...once you've held an antique Winchester, 99 Savage, any fine double, etc., up to your shoulder, the plastic G.I. Joe toys just won't compare. It's like comparing a 63 Corvette to a UPS truck.

I don't know about that. I think you need more AR trigger time to develop a liking to them. They kind of grow on you if you have shot other types of rifles all your life. Some people I know never shot rifles until they were in the military and their only experiences were with the AR type platform. They had to get used to bolt styled rifles. Much of it is about comfort and experience.

I like you did not care for the handling of the AR when I first started shooting it. I did not like the spring vibration and sound. I did not like the sight picture. But I had shot bolt action or old military style semi-autos for many years before I shot a AR styled rifle.

They are very versatile a lot of fun to shoot, easy to carry around and very easy on the body. I have numerous old rifles, classics that I love. Most are heavy, I don't relish taking them into areas where they could be messed up and weather does effect their shooting. I hunt with double rifles. When hunting dangerous game I prefer them, being a lefty who never acclimated myself to shooting left handed guns. Everybody I knew had RH guns, everybody meaning all of my family.

You can't compare a double rifle to an AR they have vastly different purposes and pros and cons. The double is also usually heavy and most of them kick quite a bit, due to their usual larger caliber. I don't see a need for a small caliber double.

You don't say if you shoot left handed bolt guns or not. The AR just takes some getting used to just like anything else new.

[E4 No More]

Not weird at all. Guns are all about what you like and what you want. Thats why they make all kinds.

What he said!

[molonlabetn]

That's why they make lots of different kinds of guns... for different tastes, and for different purposes. I personally have no use for a bolt action rifle, so, I just don't bother with them.

[seez52]

my dog is better than your dog, even if he does pee in the floor sometimes.

[Guest 2HOW]

Bottom line is effectiveness, the .223 is a weak round designed to not over penetrate. The m-16 or m-4 is a very fragile system and is subject to malfunction . Its easy to operate and looks cool, (after all our troops use it) it must be good. NOT. I will take a m-14 , M1A1 or any other battle rifle any day. Including my AK.

[molonlabetn]

It also depends alot on what you are familiar with... having alot more experience with the AR platform, there's no way I'd choose a WWII vintage rifle over one, due to the excessive weight, rudimentary controls and ergonomics. If I want a bigger caliber, give me a FAL over an M1 anyday.

[E4 No More]

It also depends alot on what you are familiar with... having alot more experience with the AR platform, there's no way I'd choose a WWII vintage rifle over one, due to the excessive weight, rudimentary controls and ergonomics. If I want a bigger caliber, give me a FAL over an M1 anyday.

Or an HK!

[molonlabetn]

Or an HK!

Exactly... gimme an MP5 over an M1 Carbine anyday, as well.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I have/had a 5.56 ak, I had an AR...sold it, and now im plannin on keeping my MSAR (aug clone) cause for me its the easiest to handle. To me the 5.56 is a lot like a 9mm...plenty effective and controllable with rapid fire, but more picky about using a strong quality projectile...whereas something like a 308 you can use ol crappy ammo and the damn things so big whatever you hit is still gonna die(kinda equivalent to the .45 in a handgun).

[gregintenn]

This is kind of how I see them. LOL!

[gregintenn]

You don't say if you shoot left handed bolt guns or not.

Although I'm left handed, I've never fired a left handed rifle.

[Moped]

If the Mill would get away from FMJ and go with a soft point design it would open up on a BG more and therefore be more effective.

If we go to a Soft Point design then we throw out the Geneva Convention. No thanks.