Is this a search and is it legal?

[chances R]

A previous thread mentioned that a young man was stopped by LEO, he presented his HCP. He had been to the firing range and had a handgun in his backpack. The officer had him step out of the car, and then the officer searched the backpack for the weapon. IF ....IF I have my HCP, can the officer then go into my car searching for a weapon? Especially if I am asked out of my car and effectively seperated from my weapon. Seems that without my permission, and no crimes have been committed, maybe other than speeding for example, that would be an illegal search.

[daddyo]

Can't quote the law on this, but it does seem to be a violation of constitutional rights. Based on the information given, the officer had no reasonable cause to perform a search as the citizen was being cooperative and forthcoming.

[bigwakes]

My understanding is the officer needs permission or reasonable cause to search a vehicle. I'm guessing reasonable cause could include admission of a weapon. I have never had a cop search for a weapon on a traffic stop.

One guy aproached from the passenger side and asked where the weapon was. It was in the glove box so I opened it and he asked me to hand it to him. I said I would rather not handle it and he took it back to his car. Brought it back with the slide open, mag out and chamber round loose. Complimented me on the USP Compact and said had a good night. Another officer had me place the pistol on the dashboard and not touch it. A third traffic stop the pistol was in my waistband and the officer said don't touch yours and I won't touch mine. I thought it was kind of an ahole way to put it, but understood. I guess every officer has a little different way of handling things that make them feel safe. I'm not sure that there is even a department protocol for this sort of thing. As long as the officer feels safe and doesn't inconvenience me for too long or confinscate my weapon I'm ok with it.

[PolePosition]

HCP doesn't automatically guarantee to the LEO that your weapons are legit or that you are not a felon. I've been searched before. I didn't do anything wrong so I complied and even chatted with the LEO's partner while waiting. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape. Generally, police will not search without probable cause (close friend of mine is an LEO and I ask these questions to him all the time). At the very least, they do "integrity checks". If the person had refused, then that would have alerted the LEO that something was up. If the person complied, the LEO would just continue with the search, knowing that he will probably not find anything.

[chances R]

I have the right to refuse, and that does not indict me of anything! No assumption of guilt. All of my weapons are assummed legit. Just because you have taken a pill does not make you a crack-head. I don't need an "integrity check"! Sorry, got to call BS on that.

[bigwakes]

HCP doesn't automatically guarantee to the LEO that your weapons are legit or that you are not a felon. I've been searched before. I didn't do anything wrong so I complied and even chatted with the LEO's partner while waiting. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape. Generally, police will not search without probable cause (close friend of mine is an LEO and I ask these questions to him all the time). At the very least, they do "integrity checks". If the person had refused, then that would have alerted the LEO that something was up. If the person complied, the LEO would just continue with the search, knowing that he will probably not find anything.

There was an entire post on this subject a while back and a guy said he had a family member agree to a search by some cops. The person was on their way to a shop to have a baby spoon mounted on a plaque or something and the cops discovered the spoon that resemble a cook spoon for drugs. The person was charged with parafinalia before the charges were dropped. I don't think I'll ever consent to a search based on that alone. If the cops are on a one track mind to find something how easy is it to have something misinterpreted?

Edited December 22, 2011 by bigwakes
Stupid auto complete

[Reservoir Dog]

A previous thread mentioned that a young man was stopped by LEO, he presented his HCP. He had been to the firing range and had a handgun in his backpack. The officer had him step out of the car, and then the officer searched the backpack for the weapon. IF ....IF I have my HCP, can the officer then go into my car searching for a weapon? Especially if I am asked out of my car and effectively seperated from my weapon. Seems that without my permission, and no crimes have been committed, maybe other than speeding for example, that would be an illegal search.

Nothing wrong with what the officer did. If he knows there is a weapon present, he can secure it for his safety (or the safety of others). It doesn't matter if you have an HCP or not. Unless something else is wrong, you will get your weapon back at the end of the traffic stop or contact.

[Smith]

Nothing wrong with what the officer did. If he knows there is a weapon present, he can secure it for his safety (or the safety of others). It doesn't matter if you have an HCP or not. Unless something else is wrong, you will get your weapon back at the end of the traffic stop or contact.

This. Remeber carryying a weapon is against the law even with a permit in TN. The permit is only an exception and the officer can secure the weapon for his own safety.

[vontar]

There was an entire post on this subject a while back and a guy said he had a family member agree to a search by some cops. The person was on their way to a shop to have a baby spoon mounted on a plaque or something and the cops discovered the spoon that resemble a cook spoon for drugs. The person was charged with parafinalia before the charges were dropped. I don't think I'll ever consent to a search based on that alone. If the cops are on a one track mind to find something how easy is it to have something misinterpreted?

If they want to search they will is my opinion if you consent or not. If you don't consent and they really want to they just have to say they saw something or walk dog around that gave a signal. I am not saying dogs can not find drugs and other items as I know they can, however the signals can be misinterpreted as well.

Tribune analysis: Drug-sniffing dogs in traffic stops often wrong - Chicago Tribune

[chances R]

Nothing wrong with what the officer did. If he knows there is a weapon present, he can secure it for his safety (or the safety of others). It doesn't matter if you have an HCP or not. Unless something else is wrong, you will get your weapon back at the end of the traffic stop or contact.

He seperated the driver from the car.....weapon is thus secure. I'm still saying he had unauthorized entry into the vehicle, with everything else legit.

[daddyo]

Excuse me, but the fact that I have a valid HCP pretty much guarantees that I am not a felon.

The plain and simple fact is that some cops overreact. Not all, but some.

[bigwakes]

Excuse me, but the fact that I have a valid HCP pretty much guarantees that I am not a felon.

The plain and simple fact is that some cops overreact. Not all, but some.

I'm not sure they are looking for felons as much as someone up to no good or something to alleviate the boredom that comes with sitting in a patrol car for 8-10 hours. I'm certain they know they are dealing with a felon the moment they enter the plate number in their nifty computer before ever stepping out of the vehicle.

[peejman]

Excuse me, but the fact that I have a valid HCP pretty much guarantees that I am not a felon.

The plain and simple fact is that some cops overreact. Not all, but some.

HCP's can be fake, just like any other ID.

I'm sure the LEO would state he felt it necessary to secure the weapon for his safety, which is perfectly legal and CYA for him. If the LEO had searched the whole car instead of just the bag, that would be an "unreasonable" search, IMO.

I got pulled over a couple years ago. Handed the officer my DL & HCP. He asked if I had my gun, I pointed to the duffel in the passenger seat and said it's in there. He said, "ok". And that was that.

[TMF]

Nothing wrong with what the officer did. If he knows there is a weapon present, he can secure it for his safety (or the safety of others). It doesn't matter if you have an HCP or not. Unless something else is wrong, you will get your weapon back at the end of the traffic stop or contact.

Nope, not unless he has a good reason.

This. Remeber carryying a weapon is against the law even with a permit in TN. The permit is only an exception and the officer can secure the weapon for his own safety.

I'm not condoning getting into a pissing match with a LEO, but I'm also not going to let my rights be trampled on. If I'm asked by a LEO to search my vehicle I'm going to comply, but if I don't want him to then he doesn't get to search. Also, according the the HCP laws he can't disarm me unless he has a reason to. I'm not going to get into it with him on the side of the road over the matter, but I will inform him that he is outside his bounds and after the incident I will be reporting to his Chain of Command.

HCP doesn't automatically guarantee to the LEO that your weapons are legit or that you are not a felon. I've been searched before. I didn't do anything wrong so I complied and even chatted with the LEO's partner while waiting. I dunno why people get so bent out of shape. Generally, police will not search without probable cause (close friend of mine is an LEO and I ask these questions to him all the time). At the very least, they do "integrity checks". If the person had refused, then that would have alerted the LEO that something was up. If the person complied, the LEO would just continue with the search, knowing that he will probably not find anything.

As for "integrity checks" I don't even know what to say. I understand that LEOs have a hard job and I respect their service and sacrifice. HOWEVER, if your friend thinks that LEOs exist to conduct "integrity checks" of law abiding citizens then I am appalled. LEO stands for LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. If I'm not breaking the law then there is NO LAW TO ENFORCE. Even if I'm speeding and get pulled over then that doesn't give them the right to "integrity check" me. The contents of my vehicle don't have anything to do with my speeding, and therefore, there is no probable cause to search my vehicle.

Once again, I do consent to search when being pulled over. But that is MY CHOICE to make, not the LEO. If I don't want to be searched that is my business and I'm pretty sure that's why we have a Constitution.

[Fallguy]

This. Remeber carryying a weapon is against the law even with a permit in TN. The permit is only an exception and the officer can secure the weapon for his own safety.

^^^What he said^^^ excepet that a HCP is a defense, not an exception.

Some laws have exceptions and some defenses. While they may seem similar they are not. An exception means the law does not apply if you meet the criteria of the exception. A defense is just that...as defense. You are still violating the law, you just have a defense against it.

Having a HCP is just a defense, not an exception, to 39-17-1307. So if he wants to search...I guess he pretty much can.

Just another way in which our laws are worded don't jive with Article 1, Section 26 of the TN Constitution.

That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

[R_Bert]

Curious,

How does one best guard against from rougue cops who plant evidence as described here - Former Haskell Officer Found Guilty of Planting Drugs as Evidence - BigCountryHomePage planted during routine traffic stop...

[DaveTN]

Yes, the Officer can secure the weapon during the stop. If you left it in the backpack in the car he can retrieve it. Anything he sees while he is in the car or anything he sees in the bag falls under plain view.

He can’t start tossing your car unless he has PC, but if he saw anything in plain view while getting the bag or getting the gun out of the bag; you are hosed.

[JayC]

Nothing wrong with what the officer did. If he knows there is a weapon present, he can secure it for his safety (or the safety of others). It doesn't matter if you have an HCP or not. Unless something else is wrong, you will get your weapon back at the end of the traffic stop or contact.

Well except, if you're outside the car, there is no officer safety issue... There is now a database entry of the firearm you own that any police department or future government has access to.... oh yeah and that pesky Constitution...

But yeah other than that it's just great to have people mess with my stuff with no probably cause of criminal activity.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Curious,

How does one best guard against from rougue cops who plant evidence as described here - Former Haskell Officer Found Guilty of Planting Drugs as Evidence - BigCountryHomePage planted during routine traffic stop...

I'm gonna make a wild guess and hope it doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. Am not claiming anything generally applicable to police.

Drive a recent-model clean vehicle of average value, follow all the traffic laws, and don't look like the kind of person a policeman might not like.

I have been lucky to have been stopped very few times and only one time where I would consider I was "hassled" by the cop. I always drive cautiously. Have NEVER been stopped driving a clean nice-looking vehicle and following the law. Was stopped one time in a clean-looking vehicle when I was accidentally driving too fast because I didn't notice a construction sign.

Except for the valid speeding stop, every one of my few stops was when driving a falling-apart junker vehicle.

Possibly in some cases driving TOO nice a vehicle could invite extra attention, unless you also look like a rich fat cat? Dunno.

Maybe my findings were just random chance with no valid relevance.

[R_Bert]

Curious,

How does one best guard against from rougue cops who plant evidence as described here - Former Haskell Officer Found Guilty of Planting Drugs as Evidence - BigCountryHomePage planted during routine traffic stop...

My question is assuming you have been stopped, not how to avoid being stopped, and is assuming a polite attitude on civilian's part.

[strickj]

Well except, if you're outside the car, there is no officer safety issue...

How long would it take to reach in a window or open a car door and shoot a cop?

There is now a database entry of the firearm you own that any police department or future government has access to....

Huh?

oh yeah and that pesky Constitution...

The key word in "unreasonable search and seizure" is "unreasonable". Not many would consider it to be unreasonable for a cop to "search" (to secure the weapon, he must look, right?) a bag you told him a gun is.

But yeah other than that it's just great to have people mess with my stuff with no probably cause of criminal activity.

It is illegal to carry a gun in TN.

[JayC]

It's not my ruling, blame SCOTUS, you can only search the vehicle if the person is in it for officer safety, otherwise you need PC or a warrant.

The database issue is 99% of the time when they take your firearm back to the police vehicle, they run the serial number... that gets entered into a database and tagged to your traffic stop, that then can be shared between police departments and other government agency's... You know how congress prohibits the ATF from creating a database of who owns guns? This is an end run around that... allowing them to create a database of gun owners.

I don't disagree there is a law against carrying a firearm in TN... and I don't suggest anybody try and make case law fighting that... but I'm not willing to except the law is constitutional, nor make it right... The courts have repeatedly violated our God given rights by allowing any exceptions to the 4th and 5th Amendments...

So, I start off from the stand point that the law is current wrong and needs to be changed... and to disarm law abiding citizens with no evidence of criminal activity is unreasonable in my book... but I understand I'm in the minority here... but that is why we have a Constitution to protect the rights of everybody not just what the politicians can brainwash the masses into believing at any given moment.

How long would it take to reach in a window or open a car door and shoot a cop?

Huh?

The key word in "unreasonable search and seizure" is "unreasonable". Not many would consider it to be unreasonable for a cop to "search" (to secure the weapon, he must look, right?) a bag you told him a gun is.

It is illegal to carry a gun in TN.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

My question is assuming you have been stopped, not how to avoid being stopped, and is assuming a polite attitude on civilian's part.

Hi R_Bert

Dunno. Was merely noting from personal experience that dented old unwashed cars, even if they are roadworthy, appear to be police magnets. One would first have to be selected and stopped before one could be set-up. The first priority is to minimize the odds of being selected?

Hopefully police who will set-up innocents are rare. Am guessing that the bad ones willing to set-up innocents would not do it to "the kind of person" that the policeman likes. It stands to reason that one would ideally look or behave identical to the "kind of person" the policeman likes. And NOT look or behave like the "kind of person" the policeman dislikes.

However, personal preferences are so varied. It seems a difficult task. Maybe you would look fine to one crooked policeman but another crooked policeman might take an instant dislike to you on general principles? There does not seem much defense if you get real unlucky, except later on in the court room? Just hope the judge doesn't also take an instant dislike to you?

Edited December 22, 2011 by Lester Weevils

[R_Bert]

Hi R_Bert

Dunno. Was merely noting from personal experience that dented old unwashed cars, even if they are roadworthy, appear to be police magnets. One would first have to be selected and stopped before one could be set-up. The first priority is to minimize the odds of being selected?

Hopefully police who will set-up innocents are rare. Am guessing that the bad ones willing to set-up innocents would not do it to "the kind of person" that the policeman likes. It stands to reason that one would ideally look or behave identical to the "kind of person" the policeman likes. And NOT look or behave like the "kind of person" the policeman dislikes.

However, personal preferences are so varied. It seems a difficult task. Maybe you would look fine to one crooked policeman but another crooked policeman might take an instant dislike to you on general principles? There does not seem much defense if you get real unlucky, except later on in the court room? Just hope the judge doesn't also take an instant dislike to you?

I wonder if you ask for a second officer or supervisor to perform or observe the search (or just decline period, without a warrant)?

Obviously you keep the interior organized, and free of clutter, carpets & mats secured, (if really paranoid, maybe a few strategically placed tamper seals, a door activated camera system ?) etc.

Perhaps a few objects to mildly draw interest & divert attention (ex. spent 9mm casing - "oops ! from the last range trip")

B.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I wonder if you ask for a second officer or supervisor to perform or observe the search (or just decline period, without a warrant)?

Obviously you keep the interior organized, and free of clutter, carpets & mats secured, (if really paranoid, maybe a few strategically placed tamper seals, a door activated camera system ?) etc.

Perhaps a few objects to mildly draw interest & divert attention (ex. spent 9mm casing - "oops ! from the last range trip")

B.

Hi R_Bert

Maybe some of those would be useful. Dunno.

Am hoping that the odds of "getting lucky" in this way are so remote that it is not worth making unusual preparations. Perhaps it would be like making detailed plans on how best to avoid being hit by a meteor.

On the other hand, the odds of being randomly set-up may be greater than the odds of being hit by a meteor, or even the odds of being hit by lightning. Hopefully not drastically more probable than a lightning strike. On the other hand, it is prudent to take precautions against lightning strikes regardless of the odds. For instance, the odds of being hit by lightning are greatly enhanced if you happen to be standing on a hill in the pasture during a lightning storm.

Its hard to say.