Where would you shoot.......head or body

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The marksmanship is marksmanship no matter where the gun started. Once it is out you either hit what you aim at or not. The draw merely adds somewhere between .75 to 1.5 seconds to the equation....if you know how to cut corners and buy time (exploiting their OODA cycle ) you can buy that time back...and then some.

As to training and your logic, the point was that since you seem to be saying that since you are not likely to be killed in training that the stress is so different that the training is either irrelevant or makes no difference in performance......yet we have volumes of stories of people in life and death stress situations where they say "I didn't think about what might happen to me I just did what I had been trained to do". And I have experienced that myself. I didn't think about what might happen I just did what I knew I had to do. Afterwards it was "damn...I'm lucky to be alive". In the middle of it that never crossed my mind....I didn't have any time to think about it until later....


Again I'm not interested in what the typical" least common denominator" level guys can do under stress. If in the moment you are worried about death and not intently focused on performing the skills then you are probably going to lose anyway. Edited November 19, 2012 by Cruel Hand Luke

[piercedan]

I don't know if this has been said, as I only read some of the posts. The main idea to practice is shoot center mass of whatever is presented, i.e. the head if that is what you have, or chest (aka Goody Basket). The idea is to hit the target with as little chance of missing as possible. Center mass is key, and it is not specific to a part of the body, it's the largest portion being presented. For example, if the combatant is in a car and the head is showing, then center of the head. If squared on, then the chest. Behind cover, then a leg sticking out, or whatever. I know this goes a little beyond a typical SD shooting and is more toward engaging an enemy, but the overall idea is the same. Aim for the biggest target. If you take time to line up your shot, then squeeze one off carefully, you could be inviting some Monday morning quarterbacking questioning whether you had time to react differently since you had that much time to choose a place to shoot.

[maroonandwhite]

[quote name='Cruel Hand Luke' timestamp='1353364877' post='848430']
The marksmanship is marksmanship no matter where the gun started. Once it is out you either hit what you aim at or not. The draw merely adds somewhere between .75 to 1.5 seconds to the equation....if you know how to cut corners and buy time (exploiting their OODA cycle ) you can buy that time back...and then some.

As to training and your logic, the point was that since you seem to be saying that since you are not likely to be killed in training that the stress is so different that the training is either irrelevant or makes no difference in performance......yet we have volumes of stories of people in life and death stress situations where they say "I didn't think about what might I just did what I had been trained to do". And I have experienced that myself. I didn't think about what might happen I just did what I knew I had to do. Afterwards it was "damn...I'm lucky to be alive". In the middle of it that never crossed my mind....I didn't have any time to think about it until later....


Again I'm not interested in what the typical" least common denominator" level guys can do under stress. If in the moment you are worried about death and not intently focused on performing the skills then you are probably going to lose anyway.
[/quote]

People keep up with statistics for a reason. Again I am not saying you are wrong for training to shoot however you wish to just stating my opinion. In something this important I choose to go with what works most of the time.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

And "what works most of the time" can be stretched to mean anything...a J frame .38 will work MOST of the time...that is until you need more than 5 rounds right now....

Don't mistake my posts. Where you chose to shoot someone has no affect on me so I'm not "arguing" with you. And where I choose to shoot someone has no affect on you. And I hope this is all academic and you never have to shoot someone for that matter. I'm merely stating why I do not go to the pelvis as plan B. I know what I can do and in what time frame I can do it in and I know what the shooters I consider my peers can do and I base my solutions on that, not merely on what "most people" can do. Like I said before, it is not necessarily what I'd recommend for the typical CCW carrier. But it is attainable by anyone motivated enough to do it. If I can do it they can do it..just requires some work.

[QuietDan]

IMO:

Coat or no coat:

With 9mm: Two to the Chest, One to the Head:

Two in the chest is (115 grains times 2 equals) 230 grains - as much as a .45 cal bullet.
He doesn't move near as quick with Two in the chest, so it makes the One in the head a little easier.


With .45 cal: Two to the Chest, One to the Head.

One in the chest is 230 grains.
They tend to lie on their backs after the first One in the chest.
Two in the chest is (230 grains times 2 equals) 460 grains - as much as a Civil War Minie' Ball.
Two in the chest is almost overkill.
Maybe shouldn't do One in the head if he's no longer twitching.

Repeat as necessary.

IMO. Edited November 20, 2012 by QuietDan

[TMF]

[quote name='Cruel Hand Luke' timestamp='1353362245' post='848395']TMF, no one is saying (at least they shouldn't be) that shooting people in the pelvis NEVER works. Just like no one is saying shooting in the head ALWAYS works.

I have friend whose dad shot a guy in the leg and the guy stopped.

But then you have guys like my great grandfather who killed two guys after BOTH of them had shot him in the torso. Neither one hit anything vital...and he hit both the other guys multiple times in the chest and they died on the spot. You just don't know how someone will react to being hit in a non vital area.Sometimes they crumple and sometimes not.... Most people shot in the heart, spine or brain react the same....

[/quote]

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm just trying to keep this subject grounded in reality versus theory. It is not realistic to think you'll be able to engage a small area of a person's face in a situation like this, no matter how much you train.

I'm saying this having done more failure drills than I could count with the collective fingers and toes of all the people on this board. I still do them. But I would never trick myself into thinking that I would choose that as a primary target, especially when I know I can get 5 shots off faster into one sight picture than two to the chest and one to the head. The split second it takes to make the transition to a different sight picture isn't worth it to me, especially when I know I might not land the shot on a moving nugget. If I can't finish it with 5 shots to the body in quick succession, than I have landed into the remotest of remote situations, made even more remote by the assailant not responding to fear or pain. So if I ever get attacked by 7 ft tall tweeker who is high on PCP and wearing body armor I might be in trouble. Otherwise, my experience tells me that my course of action is most likely to result in a more positive outcome with out assuming more risk. But I'm a "play the averages" sorta guy.

[TrickyNicky]

[quote name='Will Carry' timestamp='1353351429' post='848264']
I would go center mass.
It would be cool if someone on this post could do a little experiment on ballistics and winter clothing. I would love to know how many layers of winter clothing it takes to stop a handgun round. There must be some research already available on the net.
[/quote]

I believe it's been done on boxoftruth.com

I think he even froze a few layers of clothes just as a bonus. IIRC this whole conversation is pretty much moot. Heavy winter/leather jackets don't equal out to body armor.

[DaveTN]

[quote name='TMF' timestamp='1353370773' post='848479']
keep this subject grounded in reality versus theory.[/quote]
You can't.

[Guest Gen. Patton]

@CHL- Your comments about skill level and specific situations being the deciding factors in whether someone [i]could[/i] make the head-shot successfully are absolutely correct but [i]should[/i] someone make the head-shot? Sadly the answer to that question is that it depends on where you live and what the attitudes are of the majority of the people on guns and self-defense which will heavily sway whether you have an easy or hard time successfully dealing with the legal aftermath of that situation. Now if my life is in danger I'm not going to be thinking about all of that so I'll admit that all of this is just speculation and in a real life or death situation a man will do whatever he needs to do to protect his family and his life. Head-shots included.

[Guest Gen. Patton]

[quote name='piercedan' timestamp='1353364977' post='848432']
If you take time to line up your shot, then squeeze one off carefully, you could be inviting some Monday morning quarterbacking questioning whether you had time to react differently since you had that much time to choose a place to shoot.
[/quote]

Exactly what I was trying to say. Sad but true.

It's very easy for some people to sit in the safety of their armchairs and for days and weeks at a time pick apart the actions of someone that had a fraction of a second to preserve their lives. It's not fair but that's life. Edited November 20, 2012 by Gen. Patton

[Will H]

2 rounds of +P+ 9mm center mass should work just fine no matter what they are wearing. If that don't do it my Storm SC has 12 more still in it. Edited November 20, 2012 by Will H

[chances R]

[quote name='chances R' timestamp='1353252027' post='847610']
With cold weather, heavy coats, thick clothing, close quarters, I've debated whether it is appropriate to shoot an attacker in the head vs. the body. In general the head shot is regarded as a failure to stop. With the previous factors, and also consider small caliber,[u][b] do you think there is more legal risk just going for the head shot initially[/b][/u]?
[/quote]

Should have anticipated the debate I quess. I really don't care how or where YOU shoot, or what you think my abilities are. My question was simply noted and reposted in BOLD. I haven't seen or read anything that obligates one to shoot COM before going for the head. Edited November 20, 2012 by chances R

[Will H]

I don't see why there would be. If you just happen to hit the head while shooting to stop a threat then so be it. I don't see how they could prove headshot on purpose.

[maroonandwhite]

Legal risk? Probably not. BUT the chances of missing your target go up which leads to a greater chance of being held accountable for a bullet that hit an unintended target.

[Sam1]

If you're concerned with excess clothing stopping a bullet, carry a .500 S&W during the winter months.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[tnhawk]

2 to chest, 1 to head, reapply as needed.

[Guest ninesecond95]

Center mass, hit meat anywhwere and you have their attention.

[Tri-Cities Bob]

In a high-stress situation I would definitely shoot for center of mass. Much higher liklihood of hitting your target. Even if you don't kill your attacker, there is a good chance any hit in the abdomen or chest is likely divert his attention. Don't forget, you are not trying to kill your assailant, you are shooting to NEUTRALIZE THE THREAT. It he winds up dead, oh well. A head shot would be much harder to execute against a moving target in a stressful situation, plus the Monday morning quarterbacks in the legal profession could argue that you were shooting to kill.

[Jesse]

From all the videos ive seen the victims are in such a panic they just point and shoot at the center of the body hoping to hit them anywhere that stops them. That would prob be my reaction as well.

I just hope i never have to find out. Someone kicked my front door the other night and ran off.

I thought someone was trying to get in and you lose your ability to think clearly. It had me pumped for a minute. We found out it was some kids playing truth or dare.

[mr.ak47]

Apparently i'm the only one who carries a draco during the winter..... they better have dragonskin and ceramic plates is all i know, and if they do.Boom Headshot

[Guest nra37922]

I don't know if this has been said, as I only read some of the posts. The main idea to practice is shoot center mass of whatever is presented, i.e. the head if that is what you have, or chest (aka Goody Basket). The idea is to hit the target with as little chance of missing as possible. Center mass is key, and it is not specific to a part of the body, it's the largest portion being presented. For example, if the combatant is in a car and the head is showing, then center of the head. If squared on, then the chest. Behind cover, then a leg sticking out, or whatever. I know this goes a little beyond a typical SD shooting and is more toward engaging an enemy, but the overall idea is the same. Aim for the biggest target. If you take time to line up your shot, then squeeze one off carefully, you could be inviting some Monday morning quarterbacking questioning whether you had time to react differently since you had that much time to choose a place to shoot.

 Agree 100%.  Best advice given.

[Guest carter]

i would focus on deploying your firearm... with different clothing items you would wear on a regular basis first and for most... you wouldn't have a chance to do anything if you can't do a good presentation....

 

i aim for the cardiac thoracic triangle  ie: shoulder to shoulder to epigastric area... those are the vital organs of the body ( lungs, heart, pulmonary arteries, superior and inferior vena cava, abdominal aorta ) those will hamper your assailant but might not drop them on one shot... you have to remember the body is very resilient to injury and it takes time for you body to recognize whats actually happened... belly shots are most the time non fatal... so as the case of lung shots... 

 

train train train... the best retreat while displaying your weapon is diagonal and back gaining the most ground rather than just back pedaling... but hall ways and store isles and obsticals do present a challenge...

[10-Ring]

Just pick the right ammo and shoot for center mass.  As has been discussed thoroughly here already head shots are generally more difficult than center mass shots.  I've seen the results of a good bit of ballistics testing on just about every popular SD round out there, thanks to a friend that just eats that kind of stuff up.  It amazed me how many popular modern SD rounds failed to expand even after going through as little as 2 thin layers of fabric.  Some rounds work better than others, he did tell me that Hornaday Critical Duty and Critical Defense both performed very well.

[chances R]

 
[ Edited January 16, 2013 by chances R

[173rdABN]

Hydraulic Triangle. Wouldn't bother aiming anywhere else.