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Multiple victims at FedEx in Indianapolis


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I'm sorry but I just don't believe that more welfare-like programs are going to solve the issue of gun violence in the inner cities of America. We have been financially supporting people for decades n

I really do believe we need to bring back the asylums. While they absolutely had problems and needed reforms, they served a valuable societal role. In the zeal to address the abuses that went on withi

I understand the concerns, but our current method of dealing with the mentally ill by allowing them to end up on the streets until the commit serious enough crimes to warrant prison time isn’t working

Supposedly a good guy retrieved a firearm from his vehicle and engaged the shooter when he was in parking lot. Good guy got shot and died according to early reports from a witness/employee. If true, expect the media to harp on how armed Citizens can't be effective. Too bad multiple employees weren't armed and ready to take action in that workplace I say!

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1 hour ago, Swamp ash said:

We really need much better mental healthcare options for folks.

You are correct but every time this is proposed others cry socialism when it comes to paying for this care. 

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I really do believe we need to bring back the asylums. While they absolutely had problems and needed reforms, they served a valuable societal role. In the zeal to address the abuses that went on within them, I believe that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater.
 

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Just now, Chucktshoes said:

I really do believe we need to bring back the asylums. While they absolutely had problems and needed reforms, they served a valuable societal role. In the zeal to address the abuses that went on within them, I believe that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater.
 

I'm surprised to hear you say that. I would be really concerned about who gets to decide if a person should be admitted to an asylum and what the criteria is. Seems like it would be easy to abuse. My turn to go conspiracy theorist. Imagine them throwing people in asylums if you have political views deemed to be too extreme. Isn't China the one doing reeducation camps? I'll pass. 

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There are people that belong in asylums and those that don't.  I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.  My mom and grandmother both worked at a Mental Hospital when I was growing up.  There were some things that weren't great, but if you ask most anyone that worked there, the people in it needed to be there.  It is less about the people there and more about the policies and procedures applied to those people.  I think that can absolutely be improved without much argument from anyone.  Like anything, we know much more today that we did 30 years ago when many of these institutions were phasing out.  Erik, to your point, you are correct, I am not interested in higher taxes to fix this issue.  We don't need to raise taxes to do it.  We need to stop spending money on stupid #### that provides zero value to the US or it's people and put that money into things that do help us.  Our government has enough money to do a lot of things, they simply choose not to.

I think the bigger issue which will never be solved is the exploitation of tragic events.  It's all about money as is everything else in life.  These news organizations in many ways glorify these terrible events and give people who are already on the edge the view that everyone is being wronged in some form or fashion and people need to stand up.  

Ultimately, I am willing to accept that bad things are going to happen.  You hope they don't happen to you or someone you care about, but at the end of the day, life goes on.  If you think there is a fix for any of this I have some ocean front property in AZ to sell you.

Edited by Hozzie
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It may turn out that I am way off, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the shooter was a current employee who felt slighted or discriminated against or mistreated or overlooked or a former employee who was recently terminated.   Either way, an angry cat who snapped.  I’m not sure how enhanced mental healthcare, short of forced commitment, etc would have prevented this and forced commitment would hinge on family/friends seeing signs, which are often not obvious.  And I’m with Eric—who decides who gets committed?  In an age where NRA members are labeled as terrorists by the left, no thanks. 

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22 minutes ago, Erik88 said:

I'm surprised to hear you say that. I would be really concerned about who gets to decide if a person should be admitted to an asylum and what the criteria is. Seems like it would be easy to abuse. My turn to go conspiracy theorist. Imagine them throwing people in asylums if you have political views deemed to be too extreme. Isn't China the one doing reeducation camps? I'll pass. 

I understand the concerns, but our current method of dealing with the mentally ill by allowing them to end up on the streets until the commit serious enough crimes to warrant prison time isn’t working. As a society we shifted the responsibility of dealing with the mentally ill from medical professionals to police. That’s been terrible for everyone. The sick most of all.

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My maternal grandfather was a demolitions expert in the early part of 1900's. Amongst some of his work was the WWI War Memorial, Municipal Auditorium, and Union Station in Kansas City, MO. This was back when you couldn't get as far away from the explosions as you can now.

My grandmother told me of his story just once. As the story goes, being that close to repeated explosions can induce a type of psychosis to which he fell victim to, and they committed him into an asylum in St. Joseph, MO when my mom was just 3 years old - about 1940.  One day grandpa called grandma, (who was a nurse),  and told her, "Daphne, you've got to get me outta her. They are going to kill me!" Grandma assured him that wasn't going to happen and to just relax and get better. The next day grandma got a call from the asylum to be informed grandpa was dead. They claimed that he slipped on a puddle of water and hit his head on the metal frame of his hospital bed and died.

My grandma - unlike my paternal grandpa who exaggerated stories - was known to tell the God's honest truth. I have no reason to believe that what she told me many decades later was the truth of what happened.

Regardless of the above, I think that it was a huge mistake for the Supreme Court to disallow the ability of family members and the judicial system to force someone against their will into mental health facilities when it is obvious that the person needs mental health treatment. We can run such places much better now, and should do so.

Edited by E4 No More
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43 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

It may turn out that I am way off, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the shooter was a current employee who felt slighted or discriminated against or mistreated or overlooked or a former employee who was recently terminated.   Either way, an angry cat who snapped.  I’m not sure how enhanced mental healthcare, short of forced commitment, etc would have prevented this and forced commitment would hinge on family/friends seeing signs, which are often not obvious.  And I’m with Eric—who decides who gets committed?  In an age where NRA members are labeled as terrorists by the left, no thanks. 

I'd say a psychologist. They could commit for 48 hours or so for an evaluation, and then the judge and psychologist can decide to what extent it is needed. Mental health treatment is much better than it was in my grandpa's day.

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2 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

I'd say a psychologist. They could commit for 48 hours of so for an evaluation, and then the judge and psychologist can decide to what extent it is needed. Mental health treatment is much better than it was in my grandpa's day.

I would hope you are right, but Covid taught us that medical types making political decisions and politicians making medical decisions is now kosher.  

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Yep I wouldn't want Fauci to determine whether I needed to be in an asylum or not. But all jokes aside, there are people that have mental disorders, some induced by drugs that need to be separated from the public and rehabilitated if possible.

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8 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

.

Regardless of the above, I think that it was a huge mistake for the Supreme Court to disallow the ability of family members and the judicial system to force someone against their will into mental health facilities when it is obvious that the person needs mental health treatment. We can run such places much better now, and should do so.

I think you touched on the key here. Something along the lines of at least two family members in conjunction with consultation from a mental health professional being able to make this call.

Lots of checks and balances will have to be put in place top to bottom throughout the entire process and treatment phases. But the current method is untenable and I believe has a severe degrading influence on society as a whole

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32 minutes ago, Hozzie said:

Erik, to your point, you are correct, I am not interested in higher taxes to fix this issue.  We don't need to raise taxes to do it.  We need to stop spending money on stupid #### that provides zero value to the US or it's people and put that money into things that do help us.  Our government has enough money to do a lot of things, they simply choose not to.

There are some things worth paying for that might benefit society. I suspect that giving people access to mental health treatment may be one of those things. Whatever we're currently doing isn't working.  

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19 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I would hope you are right, but Covid taught us that medical types making political decisions and politicians making medical decisions is now kosher.  

There are bad people in all professions, but should we throw the baby out with the bathwater? I would say that in the case of continual forced treatment that a panel of psychologist that are outside of the "asylum's" organization make an independent review panel to provide oversight of the system.

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I'm beginning to believe there are " code words ", " trigger words ", and " Manchurian Candidates " among us...  These shootings are beginning to not look like coincidences to me.  I'm beginning to think that this has little to do with " mental health failures " and alot to do with some real bad actors in some very important places causing things to happen that coincide with politically motivated pushes within gubmt....  That is all...

sad and wonderin leroy...

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1 hour ago, Erik88 said:

There are some things worth paying for that might benefit society. I suspect that giving people access to mental health treatment may be one of those things. Whatever we're currently doing isn't working.  

I didn't say there wasn't.  I simply said there is already enough money.  They just need to stop spending 2 million dollars researching the reproductive notions of the three eyed, one legged, red breasted chicken moth and place priorities on the items that do something for the people.

If you want to see just how "important" all of this is to the people, let people decide what "causes" they are willing to spend their tax money on when they pay their taxes.  Add as much as you want to any cause you want.  I'll wait and see how many are willing to pay more for any of them.

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35 minutes ago, E4 No More said:

Shooter is ID'd as Brandon Scott Hole, a 19-year old. Doesn't say that he has any link to FedEx.

Now they are saying that he was a former employee of FedEx.

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"Indianapolis Deputy Police Chief Craig McCartt said during an afternoon news briefing that police had responded to Brandon Hole's home last year and seized a gun after he was reportedly voicing suicidal thoughts."

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2 hours ago, Chucktshoes said:

I really do believe we need to bring back the asylums.

Not looking at you to directly answer, but a question in general is how many of the active shooters are reaching asylum levels of crazy on the surface that would warrant admission? 

I think the abuses in putting someone into the asylum can be mitigated with proper legal and medical review...but I'm more concerned with potential abuses inside.

But the idea of some kind of mental health facility needing a comeback isn't an instant dismiss kind of notion, it just needs to be very well thought out.

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Turns out that the murderer has had firearms seized twice after voicing suicidal thoughts. His mother once called the police because she thought the guy was going to commit "suicide by police." I'm curious to learn how he obtained his firearms when he had a history of mental illness.

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16 minutes ago, btq96r said:

Not looking at you to directly answer, but a question in general is how many of the active shooters are reaching asylum levels of crazy on the surface that would warrant admission? 

I think the abuses in putting someone into the asylum can be mitigated with proper legal and medical review...but I'm more concerned with potential abuses inside.

But the idea of some kind of mental health facility needing a comeback isn't an instant dismiss kind of notion, it just needs to be very well thought out.

The abuses within are one of the main reasons they went away and what would require the most oversight to prevent. I agree, it’s something that would require a lot of care and planning to make a thing again. 

An ancillary benefit to them making a return is that a robust mental health infrastructure would allow for better triaging of folks in crisis. Like the guy in Indy who apparently had concerned folks attempt to get him help, but the options are very limited as of now. 

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1 minute ago, Darrell said:

 I'm curious to learn how he obtained his firearms when he had a history of mental illness.

Private sale perhaps?

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