Talked about before!!!!

[bersaguy]

I know this topic has been discussed many times but I think one more won't hurt and they are a topic David posted pertaining to self defense caliper and ammo. I have been told many times that I need to own a bigger gun for self defense because a 380 is not enough. I would like to hear thoughts on the issue again. I know a 380 Caliper is not a cannon but it is and has been my carry choice for many years. I'm thankful I have never had to test it on a bad guy to find out but I have 1 point I would like to make. I know that Penetration has been discussed along with the mushroom of the projectile damage done to the bad guy. Both are probably effective with out a doubt but I have another option. Bullet placement. I saw this first hand back years ago when a fight broke out in a bar in my home town. One guy was really a big guy and the other guy a little smaller than average.

When it was over the smaller guy pulled a 38 Cal snubby and put 5 rounds into the big guy and the big guy broke the smaller guys neck, threw him on the floor went out of the bar, got in his car and drove himself to a hospital 9 miles away and actually survived being shot 5 times at almost point blank. I saw the guy a month later and he was not charged for killing the guy is self defense but I was confused the 5 rounds at almost point blank and out walking around and driving himself to the hospital. I didn't speak to him when I saw him. He was killed a month later in another bar dispute but this time he pushed his luck and threw a bottle of liquor at a local police officer while looking down the muzzle of a 12 gauge and the police officer new Andy's reputation and put an end to it. Now with all the story what is the verdict. Was the 38 not big enough Caliper?   Was it was it penetration?   I have my own verdict I blame the whole death of the guy with the gun with poor bullet placement. The 38 snubby should have been plenty of fire power at that range. Lets hear ye !!!!!!!!

[TGO David]

This is one of those questions that has to be answered with data, otherwise it will be a bunch of nonsensical statements like "I wouldn't want to get shot with either of them!".  And let's face it, no one wants to be shot with any sort of gun so we can just get that out of the way now.   

Bottom line up front, all other things being equal a 9x19mm cartridge will have higher muzzle velocity, better penetration, better expansion, and be able to better overcome barriers such as clothing, wallboard, vehicle sheet metal or glass.

There are too many small and reliable 9mm micro-compact handguns today for me to give a second thought to carrying a .380 ACP.  The days of having to choose small cartridges to get small guns are past us.

 

Here's a ballistic test video that I don't hate or completely disagree with:

 

[TGO David]

By the way, there are substantial differences between a full-house .38 Special cartridge and a .380ACP cartridge in terms of ballistic performance.  The .38 Special killed a lot of people over the years that it was the cartridge of choice for law enforcement.

It wasn't unusual for people to shoot "down loaded" (minor power) .38 Special rounds and cops back in the day weren't always using hollow points.  Many used dum-dum rounds like you'd use for pistol competitions, or soft lead point rounds.  I know because my grandfather was a cop in the 1960's and 70's and I inherited a lot of his stuff, including a mountain of ammo and there wasn't a single hollow point in any of it.

You also lose muzzle velocity with a snubnose barrel.  The guy in your question was lucky, but ammo choice could have carried a big role in how ineffective those five shots were.

[Will Carry]

David is wise, David is good.  My Sig P-365 9mm made all of my .380s obsolete.  Some people have physical limitations that may prevent them from being able to operate a small 9mm and to those people the .380 is an option.  Since my reverse shoulder replacement surgery, I have gone back to .380s and I don't feel under gunned but roaming the recesses of Harris Teeter is about my limit these days. 

Edited Friday at 05:45 PM by Will Carry

[leroy]

I think this is the answer for the twenty first century... At this point in history, there is nothing better, ounce per ounce, than a 9 mm.  The ballistic guys have optimized this cartridge better than all the others put together. 

TGODavid... ".There are too many small and reliable 9mm micro-compact handguns today for me to give a second thought to carrying a .380 ACP.  The days of having to choose small cartridges to get small guns are past us. ".

That said, there will always be situations where God intervenes, and a yahoo survives what should have been a fatal shot, no matter the caliber.  I've got an uncle ( now long gone to his heavenly home ) who wuz shot 3 times in the belly by my aunt in an argument with 148 grain wad cutters.  He sat down on the couch and called an ambulance.  I worked for him for years in my college days.  He wuz a WW2 vet and a bricklayer.  Tough as they come.

I'm 78, gimped up,  and carry a SIG 938 or a 38 special LCP every day, unless I'm goin thru " Bouganville ", then I grab an extra 9 mm of some flavor, or something bigger.  I believe there is no better round than the 9 mm for daily carry, and nothin better than two of em for dangerous situations.  All that from a revolver and 1911 snob that has burned thousands of big bore rounds over the years, n carried em all...

leroy..  

Edited Friday at 05:49 PM by leroy

[spurge]

2 minutes ago, Will Carry said:

David is wise, David is good.  My Sig P-365 9mm made all of my .380s obsolete.  Some people have physical limitations that may prevent them from being able to operate a small 9mm and to those people the .380 is an option.  Since my reverse shoulder replacement surgery, I have gone back to .380s and I don't feel under gunned but roaming the recesses of Harris Teeter is about my limit these days. 

I think that is something people forget sometimes. What works for one person may not work for others. Physical traits or limitations may dictate carrying something that one may deem inferior. I'm not a .380 fan but I won't discount the benefits for those that use that caliber.

If you carry, carry it well. 

[Thearmededucator]

To the OP, theres too many variables not mentioned to say with any finality, but at the end of the day it boils down to this:

Insufficient placement wont work against a determined foe, regardless of caliber. An insufficient Caliber, though properly used, may still fail when a more capable caliber wouldn't. 

We do with that information what we will.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, TGO David said:

There are too many small and reliable 9mm micro-compact handguns today for me to give a second thought to carrying a .380 ACP.  The days of having to choose small cartridges to get small guns are past us.

THIS.

I refuse to carry a .380 after seeing it spectacularly fail several basic penetration tests over the years.  I see no reason to carry one (except for maybe injury/disability issues) now that smaller pocket 9mms are common.  

All the rage lately has been the new S&W Bodyguard 2.0.  Below is a size comparison with a Sig 365 9mm.  The Smith was obsolete before it was even released.  

Edited Friday at 06:26 PM by deerslayer

[Grayfox54]

Every shooting is its own unique story. Nobody can predict how a person will react and there are many failure to stop horror stories. But, you never know what will happen until it actually does happen. 

I happen to like the 380. Then again, depending on the circumstances, I have carried .32s, .25s and even  .22s. Its the Indian, not the arrow. 

Yes, they do make 9mms now that are as small as a 380. But I already have enough guns in both 9mm and 380. I see no reason to buy another that I don't really need. 

Further I have shot a couple of the small 9mms. I didn't like them and had trouble hitting with them. However, I can shoot a small 380 quite well. 

Another thing is that sometimes its more about the gun than the caliber. I happen to be very fond of the Walther PP series pistols. I have carried one of these in 380 and also in .32 acp. I've never felt under gunned because I shoot them quite well. 

My favorite 380 is the Colt Mustang. Small, easy to carry and its locked breech design makes recoil very manageable. I feel very well protected with it. 

Sure, some calibers are better than others. But caliber wars prove nothing. Few would recommend carrying a .22LR. Yet some people do and the lowly .22 has put a whole lot of people in the ground. 

Carry what you're comfortable with and the Hell with what anybody else says. 

 

 

[bersaguy]

I have 3 different 380's.1 Bersa Thunder 7 rounds, 1 Bersa model 85 15 rounds and a S&W Body Guard 5 rounds Pocket gun and a Phoenix 22 10 rounds. I carry the Thunder 95% of the time with 2 back up mags mostly because I can hit what I am shooting at with it. 

[deerslayer]

Back in the 60s, my father witnessed a shooting that resulted when two upstanding gentlemen had a disagreement.  One pulled his .25 Auto and shot the other one point blank six times in the chest.  The victim grabbed an elderly lady whom my father said began “singing a tune” (I bet she was!) and used her as a shield before his former comrade could shoot him a seventh time.  The guy didn’t die, at least not right then.  Perhaps a .40 or a .357 would have netted the same results, but I doubt it.  The point is we can say many men have died by .22 or .25, or elephants and cape buffalo have been put down with a 7mm Mauser, but that doesn’t mean they won’t kill you before succumbing to their injuries.  An unnecessarily marginal round just seems like a lousy idea, especially with the options available nowadays.  

Edited Friday at 07:26 PM by deerslayer

[gun sane]

According to people who make a living crunching ballistic data, the .380 ACP is pretty much like the old .36 Navy, which Wild Bill Hickok carried.  And nobody to my knowledge ever criticized him for being under-gunned.  

That said, I defer to Matthew Quigley's famous quote:  "This ain't Dodge City, and you ain't Wild Bill Hickok."
 

[bersaguy]

My main reason for posting about the 380's is, I realize that many folks say that I should have got a 9 mm. Maybe but I got what I was comfortable with that I could depend on being able to hit the target in the spot I was aiming and putting the bullet where I want it to go. With this said when I went to the range to qualify for my HCP I had the gun I had done a lot of practicing with, felt comfortable with and when I qualified with 91% the instructor looked at my target, turned and looked at me and said I'm impressed !!!! I knew I had a high score on the written so I felt I had got my permit. I guess it was my trip to the range 3 to 4 times a week was worth the trips. One thing I kept playing in my head was the Lawyers Bullet. My range buddy told me on my way to qualify in the range all he said was not 100%

I punched my first hole approximately 1.5 inch to the right ear and my second approximately  1.5 inch to the left ear and the rest of them in almost a heart shape center mass and the last one between the eyes. BT was my range buddy for about 8 months, 3 days a week and when he was watching my improvements is when he told me about the Lawyers bullet and told me not to shoot 100% on the test day. I asked him what the lawyers bullet was and he said if I ever had to shoot someone and kill them the lawyer will be able to convince the jury that I was an expert and I could have shot to wound and not kill. By not shooting 100% the Lawyer could not call me an expert. That is what the ear bullets where for. Lawyers bullets.  There was 15 people in our class and 7 of the shooters could not even hit the target anywhere. I'm glad I have my HCP because I know I could not score even close to that today.

[gregintenn]

I carry a 380, but I'm not a professional gunfighter like most internet forum guys.

I shot for my HCP with a 22 revolver. I'm pretty thrifty too.

Edited Friday at 11:44 PM by gregintenn

[1fast4by]

My EDC for more than a decade has been my old LCP1 with a seven round magazine. I can hit with it, it's comfortable, and I'm comfortable with it... 

[chances R]

One, carry and shoot what you are comfortable with.  Meaning size, weight, manipulation and accuracy.  Your example leaves out some important details; such as were all 5 shots in the torso?  Abdominal shots may be survivable vs. 5 rounds in the high central chest area.  Were some of the hits in an extremity?  Again placement is key.  If you can carry and shoot a larger caliber that would be my preference, but if not, be proficient with the one you carry.

[papa61]

I bought a .380 to replace my EDC. I normally prefer a 45. Yep, I've seen all of the gel tests, read shooting reports, read the goat tests. Nothing beats a 357 mag for stopping threats of the two legged variety. Close second being 45 ACP. But the piece that goes with me always is a KelTec 32. I'm like bersaguy with this pistol, within 7 yards I don't miss point of aim. I won't try to quote any of what I have read, but shot placement is critical in stopping anti-social behavior. Which would I rather have in a gunfight? hands down my Taurus 608 with 125 grain SJHP. But I'm not carrying that every day and I don't shoot revolvers as well as semi-autos. All that said, I'm comfortable with my 32 and there aren't any micro 9s that are even close in size and weight. The 380 was only bought so hopefully the wife will learn and carry the 32.

Someone once said the best gun to have in a gunfight is the one you have with you. 

[leroy]

What we are hearing several folks say is there are lotsa factors involved in picking a carry gun.  Old folks, arthritis, convenience, personal preference, etc.

I carry a 380 from time to time, and feel well armed doin so. Before the  938 wuz purchased, I carried the SIG 238 every day.  The 238 simply disappears in my pocket n weighs almost nothin when carried in a pocket holster.

If I'm goin to my neighborhood Aubrey's or Burger King, I may tote my 238.  I feel pretty safe as to the neighborhood clientele. 

The main thing about carrying a gun is to have one and to know how to use it.  One of my mentors who was a truly lovely Christian man taught me how to shoot.  He was north of 50 at the time.  He carried a little I frame Smith 32 and knew how to use it.  His testimony went like this: .. " I'm an old man; most anybody can slap me around if they take the notion.  They just ain't goin to "... He meant it and he knew how to shoot well.

That said, that was 60 years ago.  There has been lotsa advances in firearms n bullet tec since 1965.  The most of it centered on the 9mm.

leroy.

[Grayfox54]

8 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 One pulled his .25 Auto and shot the other one point blank six times in the chest.

A big part of choosing a carry gun is understanding its strengths and weaknesses. If this man had put those .25acp  rounds into his opponent's face instead of chest, I'm guessing the outcome likely would have been different. 

[BigK]

I would much rather have my P365 with me, but even as small as it is, running down to the corner market in basketball shorts means I'm taking my LCP without a doubt. There is not a 9mm that small and light and if there was, you couldn't shoot the darn thing.

[deerslayer]

6 hours ago, Grayfox54 said:

A big part of choosing a carry gun is understanding its strengths and weaknesses. If this man had put those .25acp  rounds into his opponent's face instead of chest, I'm guessing the outcome likely would have been different. 

If my carry gun is so wimpy that six shots center mass from a couple feet won’t reliably stop a typical bad guy, I think I’d be better off with a knife.  

[pop pop]

I carry a 357 but just purchased a S W Bodyguard 2.0 for a weak side back-up pistol. The shoot ability sure surprised me. Consider it at the bottom of my list of calibers to conceal carry. The Bodyguard is a good pocket pistol IMO, and adequate in power should one be forced into an encounter with someone trying to carry out evil upon you. 

[papa61]

3 hours ago, deerslayer said:

If my carry gun is so wimpy that six shots center mass from a couple feet won’t reliably stop a typical bad guy, I think I’d be better off with a knife.  

Nothing is 100% regarding firearms. Ask the FBI why they adopted then dropped the 10mm. Ask they army why they adopted then dropped 38spl. One of the reports I read when I studied this involved a police officer responding to an armed robbery. He was shot in the upper arm by a 25ACP, dropped to the sidewalk and died of shock. Shot placement and round choice are #1 and #2. And by round choice I do not mean caliber. One could use a 9mm or 45 with FMJ or LRN and lose the fight without hitting the central nervous system. Hunters will tell you animals will run or continue to attack with a fatal wound. Round choice is dependent upon multiple factors. In theory, you want to expend all of the energy within a short distance. Good hollow points do that. Great hollow points will do it after passing through heavy clothing, windows, plywood, and other barriers. While many will perform well on bare gelatin, once clogged with clothing fibers they won't expand at all. 

There's a reason our military went to 5.56. A dead combatant takes out one, a wounded combatant takes two out of the fight. the ability to carry more rounds is secondary. 5.56 is also flatter shooting and makes sighting at long and short range easier. The switch from 45 to 9mm was for reduced recoil, more rounds was an extra as was our NATO partners using the same round. These calibers with civilian defensive rounds are quite capable but banned from combat. 

If you would prefer to carry a knife to a gunfight I hope you are well trained and don't have to fight outside of 7 yards. Even a knife is not 100% unless you hit the central nervous system.

for TLDR, maximum system shock stops fights.

[gregintenn]

4 hours ago, deerslayer said:

If my carry gun is so wimpy that six shots center mass from a couple feet won’t reliably stop a typical bad guy, I think I’d be better off with a knife.  

A co worker's brother who lived in Cave City, Kentucky was shot something like 26 times by police with 9mms several years back. Far as I know, he's still walking around. You never really know.

[deerslayer]

36 minutes ago, papa61 said:

Nothing is 100% regarding firearms.

 

30 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

A co worker's brother who lived in Cave City, Kentucky was shot something like 26 times by police with 9mms several years back. Far as I know, he's still walking around. You never really know.

I completely agree - why lower your odds with a mouse gun?