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Dont be a cheapskate...save an Eagle..use copper ammo when hunting...

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Or remove the bullet fragments if you're going to leave the carcass or gut pile. Birds certainly aren't the only critters that eat carrion and are subject to lead poisoning. 

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Please let me be the first to call bull$hit on that.

Bear in mind it's living along the largest concentration of wolves, badgers, bears, lions & corvids in the lower 48, how much carrion containing lead fragments must the thing have had to have eaten in it's life. A bird that is primarily a hunting raptor & not a scavenger, to boot. 

Over an average lifespan of 30 years (Google) that single bird must've eaten just about every single carcass shot within 30 miles of Yellowstone AND been unlucky enough to have found every trace of lead, from every bullet.

I'm sorry, but the math simply doesn't work for me. 

Further studies have shown that actually consuming the average quantity of lead found in a recovered animal carcass, on a regular basis, has literally ZERO effect on (human) health.

Think about it....the average hunting bullet out west (primarily big .30s & 7s) weighs 180gn, give or take. If a recovered bullet retains 50% of it's mass (low estimate) & 50% of shots are passthroughs (SUPER low estimate...) statistically speaking, the average uncovered mule deer, antelope or elk, weighing a (WAG) average of 300lb therefore contains 45gn of bullet. Call 5gn of that jacket & you've got 40gn of lead.

The average critter is around 50% edible meat, innards & skin.

Therefore the average pound of meat contains 0.0000380952gn of actual lead.

The average golden eagle eats ½ to 1lb of meat per day (Google), split the difference & call that ¾lb, so 0.00002857140gn of lead per day.

At an average lifespan of 10950 days, that's a total of 0.31285683gn of lead in it's entire life. That's 1.75 No.12 shot, to put it in reasonable terms.

A hair under a third of a grain of lead, in it's entire life.

I'm calling a hard "BOLLOCKS" on the whole deal.....

 

Edited by robtattoo
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OH! OH! OH!!! And as The Wife just pointed ought, that's assuming that eagles don't actually poop!!

Bear in mind that actual lead solid are non digestible, I'm going to go ahead & make the assumption that the stupid eagle actually shat out a good 90% of the lead it ingested!!

I would alter my guess to state that I'd bet it consumed less lead in it's life that is contained in 10 gallons of tap water.

Edited by robtattoo
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2 minutes ago, robtattoo said:

OH! OH! OH!!! And as The Wife just pointed ought, that's assuming that eagles don't actually poop!!

Bear in mind that actual lead solid are non digestible, I'm going to go ahead & make the assumption that the stupid eagle actually shat out a good 90% of the lead it ingested!!

I would alter my guess to state that I'd bet it consumed less lead in it's life that is contained in 10 gallons of tap water.

Man that is some interesting pillow talk at your house. :biglol:

Maybe the tracking device contained lead that seeped into the eagle. Maybe in the batteries. Lmao....

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Did someone shoot it? that is the easiest way to die of lead poison.

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11 hours ago, robtattoo said:

OH! OH! OH!!! And as The Wife just pointed ought, that's assuming that eagles don't actually poop!!

Bear in mind that actual lead solid are non digestible, I'm going to go ahead & make the assumption that the stupid eagle actually shat out a good 90% of the lead it ingested!!

I would alter my guess to state that I'd bet it consumed less lead in it's life that is contained in 10 gallons of tap water.

My wife used to work with a raptor rehabber. Bullet fragments aren't so much an issue as shotgun pellets.   A single shotgun pellet consumed can make a smaller bird very sick, I've seen it.  Most of the birds she dealt with had been shot but there were a few that injested the lead. I think I recall an Osprey that ate a fish that had swallowed a lead sinker.  It doesn't take much when you weigh 5lbs or less.   

Most raptors are opportunistic. If they find something edible that's already dead, they'll eat it. It's easier than expending the effort to kill it. Was it you that had the pics of the albino hawk on a gut pile?

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An Eagle ingesting a lead bullet and dying from lead poisoning makes sense to me. We all know the dangers of lead. Asking hunters to use copper ammunition on their hunts is not unreasonable. If hunters can’t use common sense for a known problem; they will have the government force them to comply. Unfortunately its usually only a few that cause problems for everyone.

Quote

 

https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/lead-ammunition-toxic-wildlife-people-and-environment

Frequently Asked Questions about Lead Ammunition

How does lead ammunition poison wildlife?

Lead ammunition is toxic to wildlife in two ways:

1. Primary poisoning: An animal ingests spent ammunition (or fragments of ammunition) directly from the environment, usually when foraging for food on the ground.

2. Secondary poisoning: An animal consumes spent ammunition while eating wounded or dead prey or while scavenging contaminated remains left behind by hunters.

Both avenues can be lethal.

How much lead ammunition does it take to harm an animal?

A single shotgun pellet can cause organ failure and brain damage, inhibiting an animal’s critical neuromuscular, auditory and visual responses. Lead poisoning can induce lethargy, blindness, paralysis of the lungs and intestinal tract, seizure and death. Animals who survive often experience long-term negative effects that make them more susceptible to dangers such as predation and car collisions.

 

 

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So let me get this straight, hundreds of years of hunters using lead bullets and NOW they have ONE eagle die and its the bullets?  What is the likelihood that the lead the eagle ingested was from a gut pile?  I know some do gut shoot their deer, but most aim for the boiler room, and hardly ever does the bullet, even fragments, end up in the gut pile. 

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28 minutes ago, Omega said:

So let me get this straight, hundreds of years of hunters using lead bullets and NOW they have ONE eagle die and its the bullets?  What is the likelihood that the lead the eagle ingested was from a gut pile?  I know some do gut shoot their deer, but most aim for the boiler room, and hardly ever does the bullet, even fragments, end up in the gut pile. 

DING, DING, DING we have a winner. This is just another way to take away the 2nd!!!

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34 minutes ago, Omega said:

So let me get this straight, hundreds of years of hunters using lead bullets and NOW they have ONE eagle die and its the bullets?  What is the likelihood that the lead the eagle ingested was from a gut pile?  I know some do gut shoot their deer, but most aim for the boiler room, and hardly ever does the bullet, even fragments, end up in the gut pile. 

Its been an issue for many years. Many state hunting laws address it; its not something new.

Yes, at some point lead will probably be outlawed for hunting. Something will take its place. Will it cost more, maybe/maybe not?

The company I worked for made some parts that involved us handling lead. I’ve been a Machinist most of my life, I’m fully aware of the dangers of lead. I didn’t want to handle that stuff or breath it while it was being cut. We all wore gloves and masks.

We don’t know what we don’t know. A few years ago it came out they think there is a link between Alzheimer’s and aluminum. There is Alzheimer’s in my family and I just retired from a company making mainly aluminum aircraft parts…. great.

Responsible people in industry try to make manufacturing safe for their employees and the public. But some won’t comply until the government passes laws making them comply. It appears to be the same with hunting.

4 minutes ago, RED333 said:

DING, DING, DING we have a winner. This is just another way to take away the 2nd!!!

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting, and none of this has anything to do with the 2nd amendment.

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1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

 and none of this has anything to do with the 2nd amendment

BRAVO SIERRA,  the birts came for cannon and shot. Taking away ammo be it lead or what ever is an attack on the 2nd!

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On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 1:45 PM, RED333 said:

BRAVO SIERRA,  the birts came for cannon and shot. Taking away ammo be it lead or what ever is an attack on the 2nd!

omg loosen the tinfoil lol

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On 4/16/2019 at 7:35 PM, robtattoo said:

Please let me be the first to call bull$hit on that.

Bear in mind it's living along the largest concentration of wolves, badgers, bears, lions & corvids in the lower 48, how much carrion containing lead fragments must the thing have had to have eaten in it's life. A bird that is primarily a hunting raptor & not a scavenger, to boot. 

Over an average lifespan of 30 years (Google) that single bird must've eaten just about every single carcass shot within 30 miles of Yellowstone AND been unlucky enough to have found every trace of lead, from every bullet.

I'm sorry, but the math simply doesn't work for me. 

Further studies have shown that actually consuming the average quantity of lead found in a recovered animal carcass, on a regular basis, has literally ZERO effect on (human) health.

Think about it....the average hunting bullet out west (primarily big .30s & 7s) weighs 180gn, give or take. If a recovered bullet retains 50% of it's mass (low estimate) & 50% of shots are passthroughs (SUPER low estimate...) statistically speaking, the average uncovered mule deer, antelope or elk, weighing a (WAG) average of 300lb therefore contains 45gn of bullet. Call 5gn of that jacket & you've got 40gn of lead.

The average critter is around 50% edible meat, innards & skin.

Therefore the average pound of meat contains 0.0000380952gn of actual lead.

The average golden eagle eats ½ to 1lb of meat per day (Google), split the difference & call that ¾lb, so 0.00002857140gn of lead per day.

At an average lifespan of 10950 days, that's a total of 0.31285683gn of lead in it's entire life. That's 1.75 No.12 shot, to put it in reasonable terms.

A hair under a third of a grain of lead, in it's entire life.

I'm calling a hard "BOLLOCKS" on the whole deal.....

 

there was an interesting discussion on the "Going Ballistic" podcast about this the other day and they tended to agree with you.

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OMG , sounds like they are trying to make TN into the new CA . And I was hoping for at least 10 years of freedom here .

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Heres my thing...they don't need to enforce a ban on lead ammo...but as a hunter you should be responsible and care enough to use copper ammo...we aren't talking about high volume shooting so theres no good argument for "its unaffordable".  If you don't care enough to make the switch on the hunt then don't talk about bs conservation or heritage since your a part of the problem hurting the ecosystem.

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57 minutes ago, Magiccarpetrides said:

Heres my thing...they don't need to enforce a ban on lead ammo...but as a hunter you should be responsible and care enough to use copper ammo...we aren't talking about high volume shooting so theres no good argument for "its unaffordable".  If you don't care enough to make the switch on the hunt then don't talk about bs conservation or heritage since your a part of the problem hurting the ecosystem.

I don’t hunt, so I’m just a casual observer in the hunting controversy; but I do have a dog in this fight, as do all shooters. But I would agree with you that if there is lead free hunting ammo available, using it is the responsible thing to do. But I would guess you are going to have hunters whining about accuracies, etc. Because it’s not as “special” as their very special Super-duper hunting ammo they use (Whatever is on sale at their favorite site or local store). But I could be wrong.

However, it’s not as simple (at this time) for handgun ammunition. The California bill posted above wants to outlaw it; even when not used for hunting.

The bill starts by pointing out the dangers of lead. I have worked with lead in manufacturing and no one is in disagreement with those pointing out its dangers.

 As far as will it happen in TN.. TN like most other states had no problem with jumping on the non-smoking bandwagon and kicking those deadly smokers out of our restaurants and more than 50 feet away from building entrances so we did not have to be exposed to even a whiff of the “extremely deadly” second hand smoke, even in areas where proper ventilation was installed. And even when it put some small businesses out of business. So, I don’t think they will have much trouble getting onboard with the lead issue. (I’m being facetious with the smoking comments, but we don’t have a little facetious emoji.)

What impact will it have on 2nd amendment rights? Zero. But of course, the SCOTUS will need to rule on that. My guess is they will leave it at the state level as a reasonable restriction. Will it make it more expensive for you to exercise those rights? Possibly.

I think it will hurt ranges, as more shooters will seek out private property to shoot on.

I also think that with the daily breakthroughs our country makes with materials and processes lead could possibly become a non-issue. We shall see.

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1 hour ago, DaveTN said:

I don’t hunt, so I’m just a casual observer in the hunting controversy; but I do have a dog in this fight, as do all shooters. But I would agree with you that if there is lead free hunting ammo available, using it is the responsible thing to do. But I would guess you are going to have hunters whining about accuracies, etc. Because it’s not as “special” as their very special Super-duper hunting ammo they use (Whatever is on sale at their favorite site or local store). But I could be wrong.

However, it’s not as simple (at this time) for handgun ammunition. The California bill posted above wants to outlaw it; even when not used for hunting.

The bill starts by pointing out the dangers of lead. I have worked with lead in manufacturing and no one is in disagreement with those pointing out its dangers.

 As far as will it happen in TN.. TN like most other states had no problem with jumping on the non-smoking bandwagon and kicking those deadly smokers out of our restaurants and more than 50 feet away from building entrances so we did not have to be exposed to even a whiff of the “extremely deadly” second hand smoke, even in areas where proper ventilation was installed. And even when it put some small businesses out of business. So, I don’t think they will have much trouble getting onboard with the lead issue. (I’m being facetious with the smoking comments, but we don’t have a little facetious emoji.)

What impact will it have on 2nd amendment rights? Zero. But of course, the SCOTUS will need to rule on that. My guess is they will leave it at the state level as a reasonable restriction. Will it make it more expensive for you to exercise those rights? Possibly.

I think it will hurt ranges, as more shooters will seek out private property to shoot on.

I also think that with the daily breakthroughs our country makes with materials and processes lead could possibly become a non-issue. We shall see.

I disagree, anything that makes it more difficult, or more expensive to shoot impacts the 2nd Amendment.  Make no mistake, they are after your guns, even if they have to take them a piece at a time.  When they outlaw lead for hunting, outdoor target shooting is right behind it, then indoor ranges etc.  How many birds eat in indoor ranges, according to CA, it must be a bunch of them.  With outlawing lead, and taxing ammo they have found a workaround to demolish the 2A, they are making guns expensive paperweights.

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21 minutes ago, Omega said:

I disagree, anything that makes it more difficult, or more expensive to shoot impacts the 2nd Amendment.  Make no mistake, they are after your guns, even if they have to take them a piece at a time.  When they outlaw lead for hunting, outdoor target shooting is right behind it, then indoor ranges etc.  How many birds eat in indoor ranges, according to CA, it must be a bunch of them.  With outlawing lead, and taxing ammo they have found a workaround to demolish the 2A, they are making guns expensive paperweights.

I agree that most of them have the intent to infringe on the 2nd amendment. But the claims about the dangers of lead are very real. We fought that issue in manufacturing when it had nothing to do with ammunition.

But the bottom line is that whether or not there is lead available; I will still be able to shoot my guns.

How many shooters have you seen complain that they won’t shoot at an indoor range because of their fears of lead and smoke? Even when the ventilation systems are removing it. Gun owners fear handling and breathing lead; and rightfully so. 

This is another reason I absolutely don’t want the Feds involved with our guns. Not in any BS “national” carry permit and not in any “private” gun sales (although they will be shortly). Will trump let the EPA outlaw lead in ammunition? I don’t know, but Trump is only going to be there 5 more years. And arguing that lead is safe in ammo won’t fly.

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I know I am late to this party, but 1 reason I don't waterfowl hunt is using steel or hevi-shot. You priced a box lately?? Some of that stuff is $4.80 per round, 25 in a box for $120 yea go get a half dozen boxes and hit the duck or goose blind. You can buy a half of side of beef cut and wrapped for that. I would doubt that very many "birds" of any kind ingested enough lead which is a natural element, to kill it. Now a bunch of them have had a load of 4's or 6's to make them die and end up in the skillet or oven. Pure unadulterated bunch of B.S. by folks like the EPA= EVIL PEOPLE ASSOCIATION!! If any of you have ever had the opportunity to eat small game like quail, doves, squirrel and rabbits you have probably ingested this mean ole product lead. And if you are reading this I will assume you are still alive! Case Closed. You go ahead and shoot bullets that cost $5-10 bucks a piece, I reload and cast this evil galena into bullets and load .38 and .40 cal for about $0.05 each, or 100 bullets for listen hear it comes $5.00 instead of yours that may cost $500-1000 if the EPA has their way.

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:08 PM, DaveTN said:

I agree that most of them have the intent to infringe on the 2nd amendment. But the claims about the dangers of lead are very real. We fought that issue in manufacturing when it had nothing to do with ammunition.

But the bottom line is that whether or not there is lead available; I will still be able to shoot my guns.

How many shooters have you seen complain that they won’t shoot at an indoor range because of their fears of lead and smoke? Even when the ventilation systems are removing it. Gun owners fear handling and breathing lead; and rightfully so. 

This is another reason I absolutely don’t want the Feds involved with our guns. Not in any BS “national” carry permit and not in any “private” gun sales (although they will be shortly). Will trump let the EPA outlaw lead in ammunition? I don’t know, but Trump is only going to be there 5 more years. And arguing that lead is safe in ammo won’t fly.

We have been shooting lead for...well at least since the 1700s, hell there are battlefields full of lead slugs all over the US due to our insurrection and the whole N v S thing. Heck, didn't they almost wipe out the buffaloes, and those were just left to rot, and still the condor, and other birds, survived.  If lead was such an issue, they would have gone extinct by now, it's NOT the bullets, it's probably ingested from naturally occuring lead on the ground when they swallow small rocks for their gizzards.   Look at the areas they are reporting "lead" issues, then look at maps showing where they mine it.  

I melt down wheel weights to make bullets, as many others do, and there are no reported issues.  My blood levels are fine, but then I don't eat it.

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Posted (edited)

All of you guys saying you hunt for heritage and conservation need to buck up and use copper or just quit being full of sh*t.  I mean it kills me that people will make fun of flat earthers and non-vaccinators but then completely ignore science when it comes to lead.  "Science is only right when it doesn't contradict my worldview"....same thing as people picking and choosing what part of the bible they want to believe but calling everyone that doesn't go to church on Sunday a backslider.  

Edited by Magiccarpetrides
argh
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On 4/17/2019 at 9:13 AM, peejman said:

My wife used to work with a raptor rehabber. Bullet fragments aren't so much an issue as shotgun pellets.   A single shotgun pellet consumed can make a smaller bird very sick, I've seen it.  Most of the birds she dealt with had been shot but there were a few that injested the lead. I think I recall an Osprey that ate a fish that had swallowed a lead sinker.  It doesn't take much when you weigh 5lbs or less.   

Most raptors are opportunistic. If they find something edible that's already dead, they'll eat it. It's easier than expending the effort to kill it. Was it you that had the pics of the albino hawk on a gut pile?

Here some actual verified real world experience....yet some of you still want to call BS...im pretty sure PEEJMAN doesn't work for CNN or PETA lmao.

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On 4/16/2019 at 8:35 PM, robtattoo said:

Please let me be the first to call bull$hit on that.

Bear in mind it's living along the largest concentration of wolves, badgers, bears, lions & corvids in the lower 48, how much carrion containing lead fragments must the thing have had to have eaten in it's life. A bird that is primarily a hunting raptor & not a scavenger, to boot. 

Over an average lifespan of 30 years (Google) that single bird must've eaten just about every single carcass shot within 30 miles of Yellowstone AND been unlucky enough to have found every trace of lead, from every bullet.

I'm sorry, but the math simply doesn't work for me. 

Further studies have shown that actually consuming the average quantity of lead found in a recovered animal carcass, on a regular basis, has literally ZERO effect on (human) health.

Think about it....the average hunting bullet out west (primarily big .30s & 7s) weighs 180gn, give or take. If a recovered bullet retains 50% of it's mass (low estimate) & 50% of shots are passthroughs (SUPER low estimate...) statistically speaking, the average uncovered mule deer, antelope or elk, weighing a (WAG) average of 300lb therefore contains 45gn of bullet. Call 5gn of that jacket & you've got 40gn of lead.

The average critter is around 50% edible meat, innards & skin.

Therefore the average pound of meat contains 0.0000380952gn of actual lead.

The average golden eagle eats ½ to 1lb of meat per day (Google), split the difference & call that ¾lb, so 0.00002857140gn of lead per day.

At an average lifespan of 10950 days, that's a total of 0.31285683gn of lead in it's entire life. That's 1.75 No.12 shot, to put it in reasonable terms.

A hair under a third of a grain of lead, in it's entire life.

I'm calling a hard "BOLLOCKS" on the whole deal.....

 

I would respectfully submit that your analysis has a flaw, by using the assumption that the lead in the bullet is equally distributed among all of the animal's edible meat.  The eagle is not going to get a dose of the average amount of lead in all the tissue.  The bullet will be found either whole, or in chunks or shards.  The vast majority of the meat will contain no lead at all.  It's only when the eagle consumes heavy doses of the lead that problems arise.  The eagle would have to consume the entirety of the edible meat, if the amount of lead per pound is averaged, in order to get a "full dose" of the lead in the bullet.  Obviously that does not happen.

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