Alabama shooting.

[bersaguy]

Well the last update on Birthday Party shooting  is they have now arrested 5 people that were involved in the shooting. Last 3 arrested where 20 years old and they still have not announced a motive for it. All are African-Americans. Sounds like something you might read about in Chicago and not Alabama.

[bersaguy]

On 4/16/2023 at 3:42 PM, Darrell said:

I think that part of the problem is that our judicial system is WAY too easy on people who break gun laws. If the penalties for illegal use of a firearm were enforced to the full extent of the law I think there would be less of this kind of thing. Right now one can get away with lying on a 4470 (Hunter Biden springs to mind!), and criminals get away with very minor punishments. Perhaps if being caught with an illegal firearm landed the criminal in jail for a significant amount of time there would be fewer people engaging in illegal carry. (I'm thinking of those who are prohibited from possessing a firearm, either under-age or those with criminal records.) The penalty for having a firearm during the commission of a crime should require serious time in prison, and for actually using one in a criminal manner should send the criminal away for many years. 

Maybe the Alabama BD party shooter will fall into none of the categories I just mentioned, but I'm for taking drastic measures against CRIMINALS (not law-abiding gun owners) when they use a gun wrongly.

I agree with you on many parts of this post but I would like to add that there are many kids packing guns that they stole out of unlocked vehicles. Most of them were taken out of vehicles of legal gun owners that should have never own one as leaving a gun in a vehicle that is not secured is very stupid and that person should not have ever owned a gun and should not be allowed to purchase a replacement.     When I get in my vehicle my gun gets in and when I get home and go in my house so does my gun. There is no excuse for leaving an unsecured gun in a vehicle at night or daylight for that matter.

[Omega]

1 hour ago, bersaguy said:

I agree with you on many parts of this post but I would like to add that there are many kids packing guns that they stole out of unlocked vehicles. Most of them were taken out of vehicles of legal gun owners that should have never own one as leaving a gun in a vehicle that is not secured is very stupid and that person should not have ever owned a gun and should not be allowed to purchase a replacement.     When I get in my vehicle my gun gets in and when I get home and go in my house so does my gun. There is no excuse for leaving an unsecured gun in a vehicle at night or daylight for that matter.

Have to disagree with you there, I should be able to leave it on the dashboard with the window down and still find it when I return.  That doesn't mean I did anything wrong, it is the thief that is wrong, all day long.  Now, I live in this reality, so I won't do that, but the premise stands.  If they don't want us to leave our weapons in our vehicles, then maybe they shouldn't have so many no-gun zones.  But as it has been said, ad nauseam, it isn't about safety, it is about control, they want us disarmed the entire time.

[bersaguy]

3 minutes ago, Omega said:

Have to disagree with you there, I should be able to leave it on the dashboard with the window down and still find it when I return.  That doesn't mean I did anything wrong, it is the thief that is wrong, all day long.  Now, I live in this reality, so I won't do that, but the premise stands.  If they don't want us to leave our weapons in our vehicles, then maybe they shouldn't have so many no-gun zones.  But as it has been said, ad nauseam, it isn't about safety, it is about control, they want us disarmed the entire time.

I agree that you should be able to do that and back when I was in High School when I parked my pickup in the school parking lot I had my deer rifle and a shotgun hanging in a rack in the back window to go hunting after school which was a common thing. Do you think it could be done that way today? I was even able to take my shotgun into the school shop class to re-blue it and nothing was said about it. Try that today!!!

[Omega]

7 minutes ago, bersaguy said:

I agree that you should be able to do that and back when I was in High School when I parked my pickup in the school parking lot I had my deer rifle and a shotgun hanging in a rack in the back window to go hunting after school which was a common thing. Do you think it could be done that way today? I was even able to take my shotgun into the school shop class to re-blue it and nothing was said about it. Try that today!!!

As I said, I live in this reality, but that doesn't mean we blame the victims, it is the thieves that are to blame.  We need to stop using their talking points, they just want to control us, through removal of Constitutionally protected rights.

[Grayfox54]

As I've said many times before, every cop I've ever asked has told me that the most common stolen gun report that they do has the weapon stolen out of a vehicle. Vehicles are not very secure. While I agree its the thief's fault. You shouldn't give them the opportunity. 

[gregintenn]

35 minutes ago, Grayfox54 said:

As I've said many times before, every cop I've ever asked has told me that the most common stolen gun report that they do has the weapon stolen out of a vehicle. Vehicles are not very secure. While I agree its the thief's fault. You shouldn't give them the opportunity. 

I believe the punishment for thievery should be so severe it becomes all but non-existent.

[-boatman-]

9 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

I believe the punishment for thievery should be so severe it becomes all but non-existent.

Yeah, and double the severe punishment for firearm theft.

[bersaguy]

3 hours ago, Omega said:

As I said, I live in this reality, but that doesn't mean we blame the victims, it is the thieves that are to blame.  We need to stop using their talking points, they just want to control us, through removal of Constitutionally protected rights.

I agree with this as they have been trying to figure out a way to destroy the Supreme Court to make it easier to destroy the Constitution !

[MacGyver]

1 hour ago, gregintenn said:

I believe the punishment for thievery should be so severe it becomes all but non-existent.

It ought to be noted that there are countries in the world where the penalties are quite extreme.  Their numbers aren’t that much different than ours.

 

[BigK]

2 hours ago, gregintenn said:

I believe the punishment for thievery should be so severe it becomes all but non-existent.

Half the problem we face is a soft legal system. Criminals don't get what they deserve.

55 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

It ought to be noted that there are countries in the world where the penalties are quite extreme.  Their numbers aren’t that much different than ours.

A stiff enough punishment CAN be found. 

[Jeb48]

A long retired school teacher friend told he once took his new hand gun into school to show a couple of friends in the teachers lounge and no one batted an eye and this was in NY back in the 70s. this went along with his stories when he went to High School and kept his shotgun in the locker during hunting season. I only lived a block from school so it wasn't a problem picking mine up on the way to go hunting.

 

[gregintenn]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

It ought to be noted that there are countries in the world where the penalties are quite extreme.  Their numbers aren’t that much different than ours.

 

You and I may have different views on what constitutes an extreme penalty. I know it isn’t the Christian way, but I have no use for thieves or anybody who mistreats children or old folks.

[RED333]

I have posted this before, Phil Valentine, God rest his soul, asked "What if J walking carried the death penalty?". Think long and hard about it.

[BigK]

25 minutes ago, gregintenn said:

You and I may have different views on what constitutes an extreme penalty. I know it isn’t the Christian way, but I have no use for thieves or anybody who mistreats children or old folks.

I'm not opposed to severely painful ends for people who harm kids and the elderly. I'm a few more looting videos away from warming up to a similar punishment for thievery. 

[BigK]

3 minutes ago, RED333 said:

I have posted this before, Phil Valentine, God rest his soul, asked "What if J walking carried the death penalty?". Think long and hard about it.

Fast traffic on that road? LOL

I wanted to say something similar about stealing. How many examples to society would it take to get that picture across?

[RED333]

Just now, BigK said:

Fast traffic on that road? LOL

I wanted to say something similar about stealing. How many examples to society would it take to get that picture across?

Public hanging on TV wold stop a lot of crap as well.

[BigK]

Just now, RED333 said:

Public hanging on TV wold stop a lot of crap as well.

I'm sure the majority don't agree with you, but I'd rather see that than a slap on the wrist and turning them loose to repeat.

[RED333]

1 minute ago, BigK said:

I'm sure the majority don't agree with you, but I'd rather see that than a slap on the wrist and turning them loose to repeat.

The slap on the wrist and a walk is what is wrong today.

ETA, I know I sound extreme, but as a race we are failing, The evil in the world is getting bigger and bigger every day.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by RED333
Because I can

[Garufa]

Whatever happened to the “gun crime means hard time” program and mantra? Used to be billboard up everywhere and even commercials on TV.

Oh wait, they weren’t serious and no one wanted to enforce and pay for it.

That was all before the term “gun violence” was even invented.

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, gregintenn said:

You and I may have different views on what constitutes an extreme penalty. I know it isn’t the Christian way, but I have no use for thieves or anybody who mistreats children or old folks.

I remember the first time I flew on a commercial airline into Saudi Arabia.  Their customs form was like any other one you might fill out - but in big red block letters at the bottom of the form it said, “I understand and acknowledge that possession or use of illegal drugs in the Kingdom is a crime punishable immediately by death.”  I was traveling for work at the invitation of the king, so I asked someone who knew about it later.

That person told me that, “no our numbers are just as bad as anywhere else.“ They had more or less stopped executing people for using - even though the did a few dozen publicly each year.  They would execute people caught dealing or trafficking right then and there.  And yet there numbers were still basically the same.

The heart of the matter is “tough on crime” sounds great. But the data just doesn’t support it - even at the extreme end of the spectrum.  

[gregintenn]

8 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I remember the first time I flew on a commercial airline into Saudi Arabia.  Their customs form was like any other one you might fill out - but in big red block letters at the bottom of the form it said, “I understand and acknowledge that possession or use of illegal drugs in the Kingdom is a crime punishable immediately by death.”  I was traveling for work at the invitation of the king, so I asked someone who knew about it later.

That person told me that, “no our numbers are just as bad as anywhere else.“ They had more or less stopped executing people for using - even though the did a few dozen publicly each year.  They would execute people caught dealing or trafficking right then and there.  And yet there numbers were still basically the same.

The heart of the matter is “tough on crime” sounds great. But the data just doesn’t support it - even at the extreme end of the spectrum.  

That is pretty hard to believe, but I don’t have any data to prove it wrong. It would at least reduce the numbers willing to commit the crime if only by removing them.

I do remember when Guiliani was mayor of New York, his administration enacted some pretty tough punishments and their crime numbers went down significantly.

[MacGyver]

3 hours ago, gregintenn said:

That is pretty hard to believe, but I don’t have any data to prove it wrong. It would at least reduce the numbers willing to commit the crime if only by removing them.

I do remember when Guiliani was mayor of New York, his administration enacted some pretty tough punishments and their crime numbers went down significantly.

If you’re interested - I can recommend some good resources on broken windows policing.  There are good resources from both a conservative and progressive perspective.

Before Giuliani and Kerik went down that path in New York City - the person who came up with the idea was a criminologist named James Wilson. He died a few years ago - but lived long enough to collect a lot of data and see his ideas experimented with in a lot of places.  On that note - it should be noted that the particulars of the implementation really matters.  There are better and worse implementations of broken windows policing. Giuliani went after “squeegee men” - some of y’all will remember homeless folks “cleaning” your windows at stoplights to shake you down.

But at its core broken windows policing says if we vigorously prosecute low level crimes like vandalism and petty crime - then higher level crimes will decrease too.  The data mostly shows us that those two things aren’t linked.

There are a whole bunch of reasons for that. Areas that have had better luck with it have taken a whole lifecycle approach to policing in very small geographic areas.  Areas that haven’t had good experiences wind up targeting specific groups or areas. It becomes quota based and often winds up with abuses like we’ve seen recently here in Tennessee.

 

[BigK]

I don't care about squeegees or broken windows. I just care about results and during Giuliani's 8 years as mayor of NYC  violent crime decreased by 56 percent, murder went down nearly two-thirds, robberies dropped 67 percent and aggravated assault shrank by 28 percent. Some say crack declining, social/demographic changes, sentencing laws, and economics were the "real" reason crime dropped at that time. I'd argue they likely contributed at best, but were more likely the results of his attack on low-level crime.

[MacGyver]

FWIW, I can remember where I was and what I was doing the day Bernie Kerik (Giuliani’s police commissioner) was indicted for corruption. I was so disappointed to see someone I had respected indicted and convicted.

Looking back that respect wasn’t earned.

As much credit as Giuliani gets (takes) for “cleaning up” New York City - the broken windows initiative pre-dated him by at least a decade. The transit authority hired one of the authors of Broken Windows as a consultant - and one of his protégés, David Gunn started implementing it in the subways around 1984. That was later continued and expanded under Bill Bratton (who full disclosure I worked with) both at the transit authority and then as police commissioner. Giuliani came in as politicians often do to grab credit for something he actually had little to do with.

I say all that to say there was a time in my life when I would have been an advocate of this style of policing.

I’m not anymore.  Personally, giving myself to a grace to change my mind has been helpful.

But that’s not to say that just because broken windows style policing doesn’t work, that we’ve not learned some things about what does work.  That’s a much longer post and unfortunately the political incentives are much more aligned with a tough on crime approaches.