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No, I'm not LE. No I'm not a lawyer. No, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.   I do however know there's a difference between what the law says and what it doesn't say. LEOs are exactly that: "law enforcement officers." If it's not in the law, they don't get to make it up to make their jobs easier. Yes, I think the wording of many of these laws make it harder than it needs to be, but that's the job.   I suppose i could take the same tact and say I'm turning blue from explaining again that in Ohio, the default stance is that it is in fact legal to open carry. Mr. Call doesn't have to prove anything, under Ohio law. Unless some other factors are in play to give the LEO reasonable suspicion that a crime was, is, or will be commited, being armed openly in and of itself in Ohio is not enough.   If a call + legal activity = reasonable suspicion, then we're all screwed. Otherwise someone can call 911 and say "monkeylizard is walking on a sidewalk. Don't you think you ought to do something about that?!?!?!?"  Carrying openly or walking on a sidewalk are exactly the same in the eyes of Ohio state law. Some other factor needs to come into play to create reasonable suspicion of a criminal act by Mr. Carr. I can understand Chief Reiss' opinion that being armed in a convenience store at an early morning hour creates reasonable suspicion. The time and location are those needed additional factors in his mind. I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand it and I can see how a judge might side with him on that. However, given the perspective he displayed in his last quote, I think he'd make up something for "reasonable suspicion" if this happened at 2:00 in the afternoon at Kroger on Aisle 7 when the "suspect" was reading the nutrition label on a box of Wheaties.

Out of the box a Savage is going to be as accurate, maybe a little more depending on the individual rifle, than most Remingtons with factory ammo. If you reload you can easily get them to shoot better than a factory Remington. Savage has a strong reputation for accuracy and there is a reason for it. I have had factory Savage barrels that would shoot sub .4" groups at 100 yards using handloads. Handloading is the key to squeezing the most out of a Savage but even with factory ammunition it will definitely fit the needs of any hunter out there.   Remingtons are good if you don't plan on swapping calibers or barrels but with Savages you can do that as well. If you do swap barrels on a Remington it will cost a lot of gunsmith time to do it. Remington take off barrels rarely headspace correctly and to fix that is lathe time and that costs money.   WIth a Savage you can buy a spare bolt head in another caliber for ~$25. And you can swap the barrel at home in no time. Factory barrels can be had for $125-$200 depending on profile and length. So for ~$150 you can have everything to swap to another caliber with a Savage. With most other rifles you are talking about $300+ to do the same and that is if yours stay within the same rim diameter. If you want to change rim diameters add another $150 if you can get one at all with Remington. Setting headspace on a Savage does not require the use of headspace gauges. It can be done easily without any special tools.   I take my Savage to a gunsmith the first time I loosen the barrel nut because they are on the TIGHT. They generally charge next to nothing to break the barrel nut loose. After that everything else can be done at home with hand tools. The barrel nut doesn't need to be tightened by some gorilla on steroids either. All it needs is to be snug. I set my headspace, tighten the barrel nut to lock it in place. Then I used to use a hammer and punch to turn the nut to lock it in place. I normally give it one whack and call it good. I have yet to have a barrel come loose. I recently picked up a dedicated wrench and it makes life a little easier with certain barrel nuts.   Aftermarket support for Savage is as good as any other maker now. You can buy quality aftermarket stocks, aftermarket triggers, mounts and even drop in match quality barrels for Savage. The cost for a drop in match barrel for a Savage is less than having a barrel fitted to other brands in most cases.   In the end if changing calibers is not in your future any rifle will work, including a Savage.   Personally I would look on the used gun market for a Savage with a round back receiver. These are newer actions and they tend to be more square from what I have been told by several big name builders. You can generally find a used Savage for around $250-$300. If you are lucky you can find on in the caliber you want. And if you decide you want to upgrade the barrel there are drop in match barrels avalable for under $300. Shilen, McGowen, PacNor, ER Shaw as well as a few others I cannot remember all make drop in barrels for a Savage.   There is no reason not to own a Savage. Savage. Is a privately owned company with guns made here in the US. Remington, on the other hand, is not a privately owned company. It is owned by Freedom Group which is in turn owned by Cerebus and they are involved in more than just firearms. They also had some of their US companies start selling Chinese guns.   The only downside to owning a Savage, if there is one, is the Remington guys tend to give Savage owners grief.

Really? I saw a few people turn and face the gentleman as he was escorted out. I took it as an ovation for him...but then again I'm wildly biased.

I'll have to drop by sometime and let you show me how you reload .22.

. . . and people laugh when I tell them I lube my guns with bacon grease.  Tsk.   :shake:

Id like to have a box just cause. Set it next to the Zombie Max ammo for contingency purposes.

From reading the article Dave S posted I also see that they conducted a search of his vehicle.  I am curious as to others thoughts on this.  I myself am still trying to make up my mind on legality of the vehicle search.  Arizona v Gant pretty much sets the rules for a vehicle search incident to arrest.     The Supreme Court held that police may search the passenger compartment of a vehicle, incident to a recent occupant's arrest (and therefore without a warrant) only if it is reasonable to believe that the arrestee might access the vehicle at the time of the search, or that the vehicle contains evidence of the offense of arrest.   He obviously did not have access at the time of the search and since his arrest was for obstruction of justice i'm not sure what evidence of the offense the officers could reasonably expect to be in the vehicle.  According to the police the search was to determine if he was under any disability (basically a prohibited person) so they have already basically said the search of the vehicle was to look for evidence of an offense that the suspect was not arrested for.    My thoughts is that this is a violation of his rights and does not meet the requirements set forth in gant for a search incident to arrest.  There was no danger to the public and no risk of evidence being destroyed so in my opinion no exigent circumstances that would allow a warrantless search of his vehicle.   Separate of this im not sure you can really call it a lie if you ask if he has ID with him and he says no when the ID is in his car 50 feet away.  It becomes subjective on what you view as with you.  For example (this is a bit of a stretch for many)  you go into a properly posted business(Stretch 1) and leave your gun in the car(stretch 2).  you are approximately 50 feet away from your vehicle.  Do you have your gun with you?

I still don't like him

  No, Ohio law says you don't have to give your name except when in public and there is reasonable suspicion you have/are/will be commiting a crime. I ask again, where is the reasonable suspicion for this case, in your opinion?   Going by the logic you laid out, it would be OK to force anyone within X yards of a school to provide their ID. A LEO doesn't know all of the people within X yards of said school, and doesn't know they aren't sex offenders and not allowed to be there. Or why not stop every couple and demand ID? One person may have an OP or RO against the other that's being violated.

I just got off the phone with Cabela's to find out what they were doing about all this. They were very polite, as was I, and explained what others have already said happened. I just wanted an explanation about why some were getting different emails. She said:   The earliest customers who got the 5/24 delivery confirmation email also got the earliest backorder emails (yesterday afternoon). The last orders got a 6/30 confirmation email as they should.  The people in between got 5/25 delivery confirmation emails and may or may not have gotten their backorder emails yet.   That makes me feel alot better knowing for sure they are filling the orders in the order they were placed. I know life ain't always fair, but when it is...it's a good thing.       You are absolutely right. I will be happy just KNOWING I'll get my ammo next time they have it in stock and at a price I was willing to pay.

From DaveS' linked article:         I maintain that Ohio law says Mr. Call did not have to provide his information unless the LEO had reasonable belief that a crime was, is, or is about to be commited or one was witnessed by the questionee. The question then is does the legal act of openly carrying a firearm, under the circumstances of this call (time and location) warrant a reasonable suspicion that a crime is/was/going to be commited? Chief Reiss (as did the LEO on site) seems to think so. I disagree, but can understand it. This would seem to be the sticky point that I suppose we'll get cleared up by a judge.         First, there's no reason for Chief Reiss to not-so-subtly insult Mr. Call by suggesting he is irresponsible, especially with pending litigation.   Second, his final thought recorded in the article bothers me. It smacks of "do what I tell you or we're going for a ride." It could be argued that a responsible person is one who is knowledgabe of their rights, knows their Constitutional, federal, and state laws, and won't roll over for anyone trying to take that from them. That a responsible person is one who recognizes that a lot of good men and women have died to establish and maintain those rights and that being coerced into giving those up to make things easier on themselves is wrong.   To be clear, this was not a run-in with the Gestapo as some people would seem to think it is. However, the attitude expressed by Chief Reiss in his last paragraph, when it becomes pervasive in a law enforcement community, can be seen as a step in that direction. It's a direction I'd like to think that none of want to travel down.   I'm not saying what Mr. Call did was the right choice. This could have played out several different ways and this ended up being one of the worst outcomes for all parties short of someone getting shot. Mr. Call was being a first rate asshat. But I believe that it's his right to be a first rate asshat in this case. I guess we'll see what a judge thinks.

    Well boys, I'm mailing my registration (and donations) today. 

Just put some bacon bits in your hollow points and add some wax to hold it in.

Ya need to decide which "laws" (....spiritual and/or man-made...) you are to follow.  In my case, i see it pretty clearly, and civilizations have seen it clearly for pretty much as long as there have been laws.  Simply stated:  "...You have the right to self defense and defense of your family ....".  As to the Commandments; there are plenty of explanations and proscriptions in the old testament (...if you are christian, jew, or curious non believer...) which explain the difference between "killing" and "murder". The bottom line: --"murder" (...killing with malice of forthought...) prohibited.  "Killing" (...accidental...) we'll discuss it.   Two different words; two different definitions; two different concepts.  I wont take the time to look 'em up, but they are there, and the casual student can find them, be he a religious man or not.    I like Gotthegoods post above because im a great Alvin York fan too.  He wuz and continues to be one of my "heroes" (...if an old man can have heroes...); he was an pacifist after his conversion and he sorted the "killing" and "murder" dilemma out very well (...and i think correctly...).  Jesus said to Pilate: --- "My kingdom is not of this world"--- remember the Scriptures state that Jesus is God in the Flesh; and was born to die for the sins of all mankind.  We are not God; we are men made in his image.  There's a big difference.     Christians and Jews who, as the Muslums say, "...are people of the Book...", are to be in the world and not of the world.   That means (...among other things...) that we are to make a difference for good.   Sometimes that means that we have to get a backbone and protect ourselves and others from monstrous people and nuts seeking to killl us and those in our sphere of protection.   Paul said in the New Testament:  "...As far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men....  For me, "...being at peace with all men..." means they are at peace with me (...reasonably--- name calling and hand jestures are ok--- reaching out to thrash me or reaching in the pocket for a pistol or knife, or reaching for a club aint ok...).   The "peace" is broken the instant they move to hurt me or someone in my circle of protection.   That means they are fair game.    I hope and pray that i, in fact, can "...be at peace with all men...".  But ive already made my decision as to what needs to be done should that terrible day come when some thug or monster wont let me be at peace with them.  I firmly believe that everyone who carries a deadly weapon for protection should have this little conversation with himself and work out all the details prior to needing to make the decision in a split second.  There simply aint time for "soul searching" and ethical deliberations when you are facing a monster or mad man.   Thats how i see the Commandment thing.   Your conclusions, mileage, and understanding may vary.   leroy

I stand by my original assertion that this is a distorted market; said distortion created by the threat of government action.  Did the Senate want to go after ammunition?  Not this time, but their attempts at further restriction of firearms further accelerated what had been an already record-paced rate of gun purchases requiring NICS checks.  The rate of gun purchases has been increasing steadily since 2008, then Newtown and the NY SAFE Act lit a fire, and the rate increased even further.  There are more new or semi-new gun owners today in the U.S. than at any point in history, and they all want ammo to feed their new guns.  Demand for ammunition is likely higher than at any point previous - I don't have any data to support that, but I think most would agree that's the case from anecdotal information (and don't bother with "the plural of anecdote is not data" - I know).    Since every manufacturer of ammunition has basically made the same statement about shortages at this point, e.g. "we're running 24/7 7 days a week", our supply is what it is until new facilities come online.  Remington / UMC is building one now in AR which which will start production Q1 2014 (from TTAG).  Until production is able to meet the demand of both the horde of new shooters who would like to actually fire their new weapons, along with those who've been around through a political panic or two and know to keep plenty on hand, the current state of things is our new normal.   One other thing to note is that Russia has loosened restrictions on citizen ownership of .22lr firearms, so the demand for ammunition there has added an additional crunch.  Next time somebody says "I get the 9mm, .40, .45, .223, .308...but .22LR?"  There's a big part of your answer, with a heaping helping of brand new gunnies on the side.  Not all the new gun owners who went through NICS bought ARs or "hi-cap" (Standard Capacity!) semi-autos.  Many of them start out with the loveable little .22LR.   I hate the shortages of ammo and components as much as anyone who still has plenty of ammo (but no components...[sad face]), but if we get through this mess without more legislation, we're going to have literally several million new shooters who may end up pro-gun as a general rule.  I may be guilty of trying to find a silver lining here, but more guns does not only equal less crime - more gunnies potentially equals more people who do not see constitutionally-explicit personal rights as up for negotiation.  It's probably a stretch, but I hope that's the case.  My hope is that Barack Obama ends up being not only the best gun salesman in history, but the man who inadvertently woke up several million Americans who will now defend their rights as free individuals and disavow the nanny state.  Like I said, it's probably a stretch, but once you take on the responsibility for the defense of yourself and family...it has to be a paradigm shift for some folks.

As soon as they started talking about Obamacare, my insurance doubled the next year.  I had to drop a level to afford it,  The following year it when up again,  Last year it went up so much It was out of reason to buy it.  I got lucky my wife went full time and hers was affordable with reasonable coverage.   Obamacare did nothing but scare the insurance companies and give them a reason to raise their rates in my opinion with no benefit at all as far as my family is concerned.

No, with all respect, I think you are missing the point. Open carrying a firearm is NOT a crime in Ohio. The MWAG call in this case, under Ohio law, would be exactly the same as if someone had called in a "man walking down the street in a turtleneck sweater"*. It's not a crime. There is no PC that a crime has been or is going to be commited just because a call was placed.       *the fashion police may disagree.

His actions (regardless of whether you agree with them or not) were not reasonable evidence of wrongdoing. In a state where unlicensed OC is legal, the courts have rules that the open carrying of a gun does not meet the level needed for a Terry Stop and as such, he was under no obligation to identify himself and the detainment by the officers was arguably illegal and a violation of his civil rights.

Can't we just shoot the next 10 people that propose any new laws? :)

Check out Alvin York's wiki page, plenty of scripture quoted which calms my Christian conscience. The Lord occasionally uses real people to combat evil, I pray He will guide me with his righteousness and clarity of thought IF need to use a weapon against another human.

I'm really not sure whether this post should be in "ammunition & reloading" or one of the political fora, since it straddles both, and the company seems more about making a statement than selling things. That said, a company called Jihawg is selling rounds in many popular centerfire pistol and rifle calibers with a coating on the bullet which apparently contains some kind of pig extract, the intent of which is to prevent someone engaging in Jihad from entering heaven if hit by one. I honestly don't know what to think...it's a funny idea in a protest sense, but at the same time, I wouldn't keep any around, since it seems silly, likely to start conversations with offended people I don't care to converse with, and it's unlikely that I'll be forced to engage any jihadis anytime soon. One thing is for certain - when I saw that they existed, I knew I had to share my discovery with all you fellow TGOers. Below are a couple targets they sell, to give you an idea of what they're all about. Interesting? Funny? Unnecessarily provocative? Discuss.

He is only saying that because of the AP business.  Allot of reporters feel their 1st amendment was stepped (rightfully so) and only now are they angry about rights being lost. We have been saying it all along, the 2nd protects the first.  In fact it protects them all.   House of cards, don't pulling and the whole things come down.

  Don't get me wrong, I still equate him to the crusty white film that accumulates in the corner of your mouth. I'm just shocked at his momentary sign of intelligence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qsReUJYIfk  

Guys, keep an eye on yugster.com. I got a Cree 1200 lumen light with 2-3volt batteries (it only holds 1 battery 1 for spare) and charger for $17.00. It 6 inches long and it will blind you. I ordered 2 and wish I ordered 4. I thought my 200 lumen lights where bright but this 1200 will light the night.

Christie has said several times that he feels the very restrictive current New Jersey gun laws are "about right".   But I'm pert sure he'll sign any new ones in too.   - OS

Good Lard...

I have had 9mm bullets get stuck in a 357 bore. My guess is the seal wasn't good enough then the gases snuck past the bullet and the pressures dropped before the bullet made it out the bore. Shoot the correct bullet for the caliber. Best case scenario is accuracy sucks, worst case you stick a bullet and blow a gun up. There is not win/win only a loose/loose.   Shooting 357 sized bullets in a 9mm is recommended if you are shooting cast lead bullets. But if you are shooting jacketed pressures can get way out of hand. It might work but I have never ahd the balls to try.

I've ordered A LOT reloading supplies from Cabela's this year and they have always been top notch. I wouldn't throw them under the bus for one glitch when half the U.S. tries to order a brick of 22 simultaneously.

I wondered which it was as well ..... I imagine sadly they were cheering the judge's decision. Boo's would make more sense if they were in support of the citizen.

At least the guy was aware of his surroundings. Looks as if he was already in defense mode before the would be robber even got to the window.

  Congrats on the pickup!    I almost never use a table and just use my stomach with the uplula :)  Give it a shot :)

Picked up 3 / 50 round boxes of 9mm for $11.99 a box yesterday , not bad. Nolensville and Harding.

The coward that had him kicked out was OUT OF ORDER! Not the other way around. He only rose his voice because that piece of crap was talking over him and didn't want the truth to spill out in public. Too late buddy, way too many of us know the truth and have had our fill of people like you acting like we work (bow down) for you. Nothing surprises me anymore these days.

Dave, what am I missing then? You and I are obviously able to read, and we're reading the same Ohio law. How are we coming to different conclusions about what it says? Here's where my logic is taking me: Ohio law allows open carry without a permit. Ohio law requires disclosure of name, address and DOB to a LEO when the LEO reasonably suspects the citizen is either committing, commited, or about to commit a crime or witnessed the same. Since open carry is legal without a permit, no crime is being, been, or about to be commited by Mr. Call. Therefore, Mr. Call has no legal duty to give the LEO his identifying information. Quite simply, where do you and I disagree on this? Is it #3? Do you see the carrying of a firearm by Mr. Call in a manner that violates no Ohio laws whatsoever as a reasonable suspicion that he is, has, or will commit a criminal act?

I would look at a Savage 10PC (precision carbine)in 308, the accustock will let you use your sling. The heavy contour barrel is still much lighter than the remington barrel and overall weighs right at 8lbs. Unlike the remington the accustock and accutrigger will pass for precision work right out of the box (SPS stock is a hot pile of garbage and the xmark trigger is close behind). I still think if I was going to heavily customize a rifle I would go with a remington action, out of the box the 10PC shoots better than pretty much anything I have ever pulled the trigger on (I have it in .223 and .308 now...)

I would skip both and get a Daniel Defense, save for a Larue or roll my own; between those two I would take the Colt and never look back.  The SR's I have shot, all shot very smooth but were embarrassing at the 100m and 200m ranges; granted my sample size is very small as I only know 2 people with them and they were very early samples.  By embarrassing neither one broke 2" at  100m with black hills ammo off a bench and the fact they was shooting with friends who had some pretty high end varmint AR's exacerbated the perception of its inaccuracy.  The one friend was happy with his, the other sent his off to Ruger where it was returned a few weeks later with a note that said it was perfectly fine.  He sold his post Newtown.   They both are fine rifles, the SR with its piston will probably run with less need for cleaning, the Colt will probably shoot circles around it (from an accuracy standpoint) as long as its wet, it will require more attention to detail on the cleaning side.

I think Hoarding is what people do after an ammo crisis begins. Stocking is the same thing, just before the ammo crisis begins. I wouldn't put a number on it because it all depends on what you are "stocking" for. Are you stocking for going to the range or for resisting the placemet in DHS internment camps?

  "Again" is key word. Ho hum.   Why don't they simply end the funding, since as I understand it, they can actually do that? Perhaps because the GOP has no plan to replace it, and know it would backfire on them?   - OS

Sitting FAT!! Don't even have a count. Not worried. Was this way before all the panic.

Dave S with all due respect to you and other LE you are still missing the point.  Under Ohio law open carrying of a firearm is not crime.  So the police did not have any reason to suspect that the individual had committed, was committing or about to commit a crime.  They key part of the supreme court ruling on Terry V Ohio is the and.  They require reasonable suspicion not just that he was armed but that he was committing or about to commit a crime. Their was no articulable reason for them to believe that he was unlawfully carrying.  Even had they officer been acting in good faith believing he was within his legal authority the supreme court has ruled good fait is not enough.     " â€œ... in justifying the particular intrusion the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant the intrusion.”  from Terry v Ohio   The only articulable fact that the police had was that he was openly carrying a firearm, which under Ohio law is not a crime.   They had no other reasons for detaining him.    The presence of the gun when open carried is not in and of itself enough reason to detain someone under Ohio law.  They can ask him for his ID all they want all and he can refuse to answer (again affirmed by Ohio law) but the moment he was detained against his will they overstepped their legal authority.     A citizen does not have to prove to the police that they were not doing anything illegal.   In regards to the law suit I think its dumb to sue a city especially for egregious amounts when no significant damage was done.  However these officers were wrong and likely would have gotten away with violating his rights had he not chosen this course of action.  At the very least the law suit will cause the city to have to consider additional and or remedial training for their officers in how to respond to incidents like this.

So your answer is to treat the average citizen as if they are a criminal because somebody might do something bad with a gun? This is the same argument that Bloomberg and his ilk use in their fight to disarm us.

  We broke Cabelas. :surrender:  :rofl:

Look at it from the seller's perspective.    Probably 90+ % of women buy a small 380 or 38sp.  Another 5% might get a compact 9mm.   Maybe 1/2 % might even look at a 1911.     You want to see a 1911?  Say "let me see a 1911".    Same goes for a man.  A man walks in there and says "I needz a gun for defense, whats good" he is not going to get to see the 1911s, because most men do not buy those for defense.     The SECOND you walk in there and ask for a recommendation, the guy has to make a decision on what you might like and because you asked, has to assume you know nothing at all.   If you knew anything, you would point and ask to see what you wanted to see.   From his experience,  female shooters want tiny guns in medium calibers, 380s and 38s being super popular.    Go in there and point to anything at all that you like, say "let me see that one" and then if it is not what you want, spell it out... "this is the right size but the grip is too fat, what is similar but more comfortable...?  and you will get a better answer.       --- and my personal 2 cents: I think it is idiotic to recommend a gun with a 10+ pound trigger pull to any novice who clearly does not know what they want.  Actually recommending anything is a thankless task, with nothing to go on, and a shooter who simply does not know what to ask or what they want, its like trying to sell a car to a 6 year old --- all you know is that brand name recognition and shinys might work.

  The guy who did the shooting is the victim, the guy who got shot was the criminal.

Look into spring assisted knives, they are legal for civilian carry since the action is initiated from the blade and not the handle from my understanding. Other than that they are pretty nice if you need to open a knife and you only have one hand available. The Kershaw Leek has been my EDC for over a year; the spring assisted function comes in handy quite a bit.

43¾'' is a big knife. :usa:

Come on down to Tennessee, patron state of shootin' stuff!  You will like it here.  We have good hunting, mild winters, and no state taxes.  We have mountains, valleys, plains, lots of lakes and rivers for fishing.  We have large cities and small ones.  If you can think of it, we probably have it. Maybe not on the scale of NYC, but we are happy with it! :)   I recommend you come down for a vacation and travel the state to see what area you might like.

they should at least open it so HCP allows carry of any sort of bladed weapon.  

Then where would I put all my tough guy morale patches?