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I have experienced the progressive underminings of citizens' rights by a tyranical government in my country of birth Venezuela.   That is how they started, undermining the value of the military and having them participate in civil tasks, making them loosen their deffese of the border with Colombia and ignore  FARC which is the narcogerrilla terrirosts, doing these things more and more of the true patriot military leaders either oppossed and quit or were kicked out or imprisoned.   At the same time these communists led by Chavez, taught and mentored by the Castros, began arming parallell groups of militias called "Circulos Bolivarianos" who were used to terrorize the citizenry. At the same time the national guard was being purged of any opposition and given more and more power to control internal ('domestic") uprisings... through all this they made it harder and harder for the common citizen to own guns finally banning gun ownership but for a select few with influence, a lot of money or connections with the goverment and always blaming the raising crime rate for said gun control.   Right now people are finally waking up and realizing the terrible damage Chaves's reign did and what his sucessors are doing, they're waking up because they are no longer blinded by the prescence of their hero. It is a critical time in the country after the current administration that took over with Chaves's death stole the elections and have been forcing all powers to legitimize it.    The problem is that the opposition and the citizens who now know they are the majority have no choice but to hold peaceful protests and ask for international intervention. At all these peaceful protests a few people die, more are wounded and many imprisoned, less and less people go now in fear of what happens. The "Circulos" "Tupamaros" and other armed groups terrorize and hurt people while the national guard who act like they are not there but they ride motorcicles carrying long guns in plain flags like they were flags. less and less people will protest in the street.   It is very unlikely the corrupt government will fall. 14 years going on 15... His first canpaign run was on CHANGE and the end of traditional corrupt government.    I could'nt yet vote and was telling my friends not to vote for him, his associations warned us he was a communist. They all laughed at me with similar insults as your tin hat joke.   This is serious.   I couldn't yet vote here when I was telling all my friends about BHObama's associations, I became a citizen and voted agaist him in the second election, it's all I have done until now I am writing this... I am convinced he read Chavez's history and is following his and Castro's manual...   This is serious.   Before dismissing it like it were a joke let's all just look at the facts and read the history. The communists are reading the history, they know how to make us not do anything until it is too late.

Only if it looks like this:

stop buying overpriced ammo.  Plain and simple.   Buy the ammo from assholes jacking up prices and it will never stop.   Begin with it all by not buying from the jack legs on this site raping people with ammo prices.

EXACTLY. (not the obama part).   I have always contended that the head unjury was due to either to him being hit from behind, or from him hitting his head as he went down.   The grass stains tell me that the grounded part of the fight was likely NOT on pavement UNLESS it was at the edge of pavement and ONLY his head and shoulders were on the pavement and the rest of his body was in the grass.   But frankly it DOES NOT MATTER whether he was getting punched in the face laying on pavement or laying on the ground because EITHER is deadly force in that situation. If the pressure is vertical and you are pinned against the ground and cannot get out of it then you are likely to be unconscious soon. So even if it was not bounced off pavement multiple times it was still struck, most likely from behind which leads me to belive Martin hit him first and did it when his back was turned....   And if the fall caused the injury then Martin STILL CAUSED an injury that combined with the continued assault would have led any reasonable person to conclude that they were in real imminent risk of grave bodily injury or death. Unarmed people kill people every day and teenagers kill people just as dead as 40 year olds do....so stop looking at it as an "unarmed child murdered by a wannabe cop" and look at whether the fight even had to happen (BOTH could have disengaged) and whether Z was in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death. If so then the law is pretty clear and WHY he was not charged initially.

So, if someone has a different opinion they aren't thinking logically? I'm fully prepared to accept that Zimmerman is innocent. I have not seen that from anyone here who believes differently..... yet folks like me are the closed minded ones?

Or one could use screen names that are linked to real life   The Internet isn't anonymous unless you expend extraordinary efforts, and that only keeps the amateurs at bay. 

I'm not condoning it or saying I do it or would do it. But I can understand people who do it because they are sick and tired of paying to exercise a Constitutional right. This state has no clue what true firearms freedom is. I'm sick and tired of paying $115 to the state and $60 to someone who may or may not know as much or more than me about firearms, firearms safety and carry laws. Sent from the backwoods of Nowhere

Not that I know of. And I know you won't get people to admit to it on the internet if they did.

I’ll play….. Because you can’t provoke the attacker or be engaged in criminal behavior.

IF Zimmerman approached and accosted Martin with gun in hand and did not ID himself and Martin tried to defend himself then Zimmerman should likely get convicted....   IF Zimmerman approached , ID'd himself and asked what Martin was doing and then was in the process of leaving when Martin attacked him from behind then Zimmerman should be acquitted....   It largely hinges on WHY Martin ended up in a scuffle with Zman. If it was in order to defend himself from a stranger pointing a gun at him then that is one thing.....if it was in order to " teach him a lesson" then that is something entirely different.    From the evidence seen so far and knowing what I DO know about physical confrontation at 5 feet and less, the head wounds on the BACK of Zimmermans head , and the grass stains on the BACK of Zimmerman's clothing are pretty consistent with him being attacked and knocked down or taken to the ground and then mounted.   If Martin was in the process of working the ol' "ground and pound" the Zman would have been reasonably in fear of his life. Unfortunately Zman did not have better hand to hand skills because if he did he possibly could have bettered his position and either reversed it or escaped without ever going for the gun.I'll bet Z would give everything he has ever had to have spent more time working on hand to hand skills before that night......   So what happened and WHY is that important?   Did Z approach Martin with gun in hand yelling at him? Or did Z approach and ID himself as neighborhood watch and calmly and politely ask who Martin was and where he was going?    Did Martin ID himself and Z apologize and turn to go?    Did Martin ID himself but then start berating Z who began to back away?   Did Martin tell Z to go "F" himself and when he turned to get away Martin attacked him?    Did Z  pull his gun during the "interview" stage and then Martin was offended/insulted enough to try to take it away?   Did Martin SEE Z's gun and was offended/insulted/enraged enough to try to take it from him?    Did Martin rush Zman and take him down and Z then pulled his gun as he was going down?    Did Zman try to disengage and while backing away did Martin knock Zman down , stun him, mount Zman and start punching him causing Z to pull his pistol to respond before he was knocked unconscious?   Did Zman turn to leave and Martin hit Zman from behind, knock Zman down , stun him, mount Zman and start punching him causing Z to pull his pistol to respond before he was knocked unconscious?     Or did Martin knock him down, mount him and then feel the gun and try to take the gun from Zman?   We may never know for SURE, but we will probably see from the evidence that this was not a case of Zman running up and just "gunning down" Martin like many are trying to portray this.    If Z was waving his gun around and Martin was in fear of injury or death and then closed with Z and tried to disarm him then I'm good with Z being convicted.    If Z was trying to disengage and was rushed (and especially if he was hit from behind) , then mounted and beaten then a REASONABLE person would be in LEGITIMATE fear of crippling injury or death. If THAT is what happened then Z should be acquitted. A 17 year old can beat you to death just as easy as an 18 year old......and dead is dead...no matter what the age of the assailant.    So depending on EXACTLY what happened you could get different verdicts...and if the evidence supports the verdict...I'm OK which ever way it goes. 

Yep! Fried / grilled on toast with mayo and a nice thick slice of juicy garden fresh tomato and a couple of olives and chips to peak the ole taste buds.   Getting it cut to order thick from the local butcher shop is so much better than what's at your supermarket!   BTW. Not to disrespect a mans bologna, or steal this thread, what's yawls favorite way to cook deer back straps?

Assuming you don't want to buy a new pistol since your post wasn't phrased that way, why not carry both? Choose the one you're more comfortable with as the primary and the other as a new york reload.

I suspect they'll loot and burn regardless of the verdict; if Zimmerman is found not guilt they'll do so out of anger, if he's found guilty they'll do so to "celebrate".   After all, nothing celebrates a "win" like burning down your neighborhood!  :)

I am the exact opposite. I could take "slow" Zombies all day long. If a herd of those "Rage" zombies came around the corner I would be running with dirty pants.

Sure, but they aren't on the jury and they don't work for the State of Florida.

Thanks for the heads up, but I'd use my AR as a club before I'd spend money with the dicks at Dicks.

The chase was over at 2:45 into the phone call. Zimmerman talks in a normal voice for another 90 seconds. He obviously wasn't chasing Martin during those 90 seconds. He's talking in complete sentences. Yet the confrontation occurs very close to where the chase stopped. So... how does this confrontation occur unless Martin comes back? Some folks aren't looking at the whole picture. They stopped thinking logically as soon as Zimmerman exited his vehicle.

I'm reposting this since it contains facts that are being overlooked. I've highlighted key points in red.     The chase was over at 2:45 into the phone call. Zimmerman talks in a normal voice for another 90 seconds. He obviously wasn't chasing Martin during those 90 seconds. He's talking in complete sentences. Yet the confrontation occurs very close to where the chase stopped.   So... how does this confrontation occur unless Martin comes back?

My wife loves her 238 with polished SS and pink hogue grips. Honestly, I live it too. I picked up a 938 after handling hers.

As Clod Stomper said, I too carried for years before TN issued permits. 

I'll admit to it.     Before Tennessee had a permit system, I carried regularly.  I hurt no one and broke no other laws and no one was the wiser.  After TN instituted a permit system, circa 1993-'94, it was (iirc) a PITA to conform (honestly, I don't remember the specifics, but maybe someone can remind me) that I still didn't get a permit.  Around '97-'98, TN changed the law again and made it much easier to get a permit.  So, in 1998, my (future) wife and I took a class (Buford Tune in Nashville.  What a character!) and got our permits.     I still don't believe that I need permission from the state to exercise my right to self-defense, and if the permit law were repealed tomorrow, I would still carry.  And (apart from this post) neither you nor the popo would have any idea.  I would be much more concerned with concealment than I am right now.  Just as I was before 1998.     I got my permit despite any worries about being on a "list".  Like someone said in a different thread, if I'm not on a list already, somebody's not doing their job.

After the story and photo you posted with your dog a while back, you'll always be alright with me.  :cool: 

The thing is, it is illegal to start a fight. It is not illegal to "patrol" your neighborhood for possible illegal activity. If you see someone or something that appears suspicious in your neighborhood, it is not illegal to further investigate. Even if Zimmerman happened upon Martin and asked him what he was doing, that is not illegal. If Zimmerman physically assaulted martin first, that would have been illegal. But there is zero proof that happened. As far as I can tell, at least up to this point, there is zero evidence Zimmerman broke any laws.    We have the testimony and bloody pictures of Zimmerman with two cuts to the back of his head and a bloody nose that appears to be swollen to twice it's size. If anyone is insinuating these are self-inflicted injuries, you are seriously grasping at straws.   Martin is no longer around to contradict Zimmerman's testimony, and anything anyone thinks he would have said holds zero water.    As far as I am concerned, unless the prosecution has some damaging bombshells up their sleeves, I can't fathom Zimmerman being convicted of murder. If the jury can take all emotion out of the equation and only consider the facts, a murder conviction is not justified, in my humble opinion.   Even if Zimmerman is proven to be a full-fledged member of the KKK and/or a convicted murderer in a previous life, that does not mean he murdered Martin. 

Opinions?  Really?  Why seems like just a couple of posts above you were giving us you insight based on your forensic experience...are you saying now it was just "opinion"???  :shrug:     Oh yeah...I'm much to "in" to it...I mean; I'm almost the only one who has posted in this 25 page thread, right "dude"?   ROTFLMAO :rofl:

An estimated 85 to 100 million people were rounded up by their own governments & "disposed of" in the 20th Century, the vast majority of those killed by their own governments were living under communist regimes. Genocide isn't tin-foil hat stuff, it actually happens more than most folks realize, make no mistake about it ... it most certainly can happen here, just as it has happened time after time, in country after country, in fact if history is any sort of indicator, genocide is almost guaranteed to happen when communists seize power. I'm not "fear-mongering" I'm just stating the facts, communists don't play well with others, once they seize enough power absolutely no dissenting opinions are allowed, let alone any sort of actual opposition, if you dissent a little in opinion you are re-educated, if you dare to physically resist you are executed. This is their modus operandi & we should keep a watchful eye on those who keep such a watchful eye on us.

I guess that settles that - it seems like FL is going through a lot of unnecessary trouble with a trial and all; they could have just had you explain it all to them. :rofl:   Unless you were there your armchair quarterbacking is worth no more than that of anyone else no matter how many "consistent with" this or that you throw around.

I'm sorry, but I am trying very hard to find logic in some of the arguments where Zimmerman is guilty of any sort of crime, much less murder. It would be nice if some of you would please tell me the exact moment any crime was committed by Zimmerman.    Was it when he thought Martin appeared suspicious?   Was it when he exited his vehicle?   Was it when he began to follow Martin on foot?   Was it when he actually shot Martin?    As far as I can tell, Zimmerman didn't break any laws, with the exception of , possibly, at the moment when he pulled the trigger. Unless you have more information about the case than those of us in the general public, it's beyond me how anyone could possibly have him pegged as a murderer.    If he didn't break any laws up to the point of the face to face confrontation, his guilt must revolve around this very short time frame. According to Zimmerman -  the only real witness as to what happen in those very moments - Martin attacked him, and Zimmerman acted in self defense. There are police photos that prove Zimmerman was physically assaulted, so as far as I am concerned, that only helps prove a case of self defense.    While I wasn't there to witness what exactly happened, neither were any of you. With that being said, none of us can come to our own premature conclusion with anything other than what's been reported by the media. Unless I missed something (if I have, please point it out) there is zero firm evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin first.    You can argue that you would not have pursued Martin, had you been in Zimmerman's shoes. You can argue that you would have done any number of things differently, but that hardly makes Zimmerman guilty of murder.    As I said before, there's undoubtedly going to be evidence revealed in court that has yet to be reported through the media. Until then, I'll be trying to understand how anyone already has him guilty as charged.

Guys, I just discovered this.  For those of you who have not seen this, it is so worth your time.  I laughed till I cried.   Enjoy.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQYep23-onw

  No need to get nasty  :rofl:

Ummm the blood? What do you want Dave? Did you want his brains coming out of his ears before he dared defend himself? Jeesh man at this point I'm guessing you voted for Obama.

You, my good sir, are a heathen.

Meh, the main factor in formating my opinion that it was "self-defense on Zimmerman's part" was the fact that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman, pinning Zimmerman down while he was repeatingly bashing Zimmerman's head against the cement sidewalk when Zimmerman discharged his weapon.

You're probably right, but I don't think that a reversing of the races would change my opinion. If Martin were white I'd have the same opinion. I do believe that Zimmerman profiled him, but I don't think that in it of itself is wrong. I suppose if Martin was white Zman may have called the police simply based on his age, time and place unless it was common to see white teenagers walking around after dark in the complex. I think race here is what is affecting people's interpretation of events, on both sides.

If I see it, I'll be rooting for the zombies.

My Daughter is my whole world! I just wanted to share with her some of the awesome stuff I've got to do growing up!   Dave S

Very nice man, fresh bacon & seafood mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Differences of opinion and differences of opinion doesn't mean either side is being illogical.   However, while I don't think you are, I do think there are people who seem overly willing to overlook any information that doesn't support their opinion which would lead me to think that their opinion is based on "belief" or some kind of emotion and emotion is not logic; it's just emotion!  :)

Personally I'd carry a G20 (10MM); many hunters rely on the 10MM for emergencies like you are worried about.   Next on the list would be a 45.   I wouldn't bother with the 9MM, but, it might be possible that you could (with a new barrel) modify your 19 to use 357SIG which I think could be a good alternative and not require you to go out and buy a new gun; I'm no expert on Glocks but it might be worth checking into.

  Yup. This entire ordeal reminds me of the gun control debate. There is a small crowd that continues to react based on emotion. They had their mind made up from day one and refuse to consider any alternative. Meanwhile the rest of us keep looking at the facts before passing judgement.   As you mentioned before, I am sure there is evidence on both side that we don't know about it. If Z man is found guilty I won't shed a tear, but based on what we know right now I doubt that will happen.

I trim my cases to 1.745". I used to trim at 1.755"-1.760" and I had to trim every time. I use a Lee trimmer and used a grinder to knock .015" off the stem. With the collet and body die trimming the cases is not happening anywhere near as often. Having a case too short is never a problem as long as it holds the bullet. Too long can cause serious issues with pressure because the case mouth is held closed by the throat. And the bullet is not released until pressures are dangerous.

impeach.  that is hysterical.   no one in congress is gonna start that.     Obama could shoot someone in the head on national TV and nothing would come of it. I am being serious in that serious about that too.

  So by your own words he's guilty until proven innocent. You've already made your mind up despite the fact that you nor I know what really happened that night.   You're posts are becoming irrational and childish.

  You're obviously a racist.                  I'm just messing with you.  You raise a good question.

Same here. My better half, through process of elimination choose the P238. Just remember, no pictures, it didn't happen!

Congrats , and a very good story thanks for shareing.

If i were getting a 1911 for carry, I would not get a S&W or a Sig simply for the fact of an external extractor, where the 1911 was designed to function properly with an internal extractor. I personally want an Ed Brown Special Forces Carry but they are very pricey. I second the Ruger SR1911 commander.

I order from Midway several times a year, but never ammo. Before this ammo craziness hit, I hardly ever found ammo online cheap enough with shipping to beat Walmart, Academy, etc. prices. When I did buy ammo online, I always bought enough to justify the shipping cost. Sometimes that meant buying 4 or 5 times as much as I "needed" to keep the cost/round down.   Lately, it's insane. I can buy 100 rounds (their typical limit) of .223 from Cabela's cheaper with shipping than I can buy 100 rounds locally. That wouldn't be true if I were only buying 20, though (but, who-the-hell only buys 20 rds of .223?).

From the good people at the ATF:   1) On the Frame or Receiver the Serial number; 2) on the frame, receiver, or barrel the following additional information;    A)The model;    B)The caliber or gage;    C)Your name or name of the Trust in the case of a Trust (no abbreviations are permitted for the Trust name);    D)The city and state (you can abbreviate the state with the official 2 digit state code) Iinformation must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch.

  Yep, I used to use a $12,000 one at my last workplace.  Could mow the football field, baseball field and soccer field in 45 minutes at what seemed like 20mph  :rofl:   Hell, they got multiple engines on some of their mowers now, basically making them to the point where you could mow down a rock quarry and create granite counter tops.