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Since the debate continues I will ask what I asked in the first epic thread and got nothing but politician responses.   What would YOU DO as a licensed and permitted handgun carrier if someone was on top of you slamming the back of your head into the pavement?   The events leading up to your potential death or permanent disability are really irrelevent.  At the point Zimmerman fired the shot heard round the country he was in such a postition and the events leading up to that do not justify his "taking an ass-whoopping".

For some reason, the BSA is convinced I'm an Eagle Scout (I wasn't but they think I am) and I was surveyed on this issue a few months ago as I'm sure many here were.   Frankly, I don't have a problem with "gay" boys being allowed in scouts...they were already there anyway.  Improper sexual behavior is improper sexual behavior regardless of what sex or sexes are involved and sexual "anything" really has no place in scouts in any event.   Gay boys can benefit from learning how to pitch a tent, use a compass, build a camp fire and tie a knot just like any straight boy can.   I think some here are turning this into a "sexual" issue and it simply isn't...not allowing gay boys into scouts simply because they are gay makes about as much sense as not allowing children with red hair into scouts because they have red hair. Many seem to always want to make the leap from "being gay" to "having gay sex" one is simply not interchangeable with the other.

In just 1 1/2 minutes, Nora Craig tells elected officials in New Jersey just what their job is supposed to be. Classic!!   http://www.therightscoop.com/fantastic-new-jersey-woman-delivers-a-lesson-on-the-2nd-amendment/  

I don't think anyone is surprised by this new evidence. Seemed pretty clear TM was a thug from the get-go, not an innocent kid. GZ is no saint, either, but I don't believe what he did wrong warranted him dying, which is what would have happened if TM kept bashing his head against that sidewalk.

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?   Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?   Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

Went over to a friend of my mothers house today to help her out with some home maintenance that was overdue. While talking to her she mentioned that she had a .22 rifle she wanted to show me. I was expecting a plinker .22. She brought out a beautiful German made falling block target rifle. Detachable diopter rear sight, front palm rest, gorgeous checkering, and a trigger that can only weigh ounces. She ended up giving it to me as she hasn't shot it in almost twenty years. It is an incredibly well made rifle and an unbelievable gift. She said her father brought it back from Germany after WW2. From what I can tell from an Internet search it was made in the 1920s. Haenel K.K. Sport, .22LR http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Haenel_Target_Rifle.htm Mike

The round that grazed his head actually sent skull fragments into his brain. They found the suspect and he was killed in a fire fight with officers.

So, there's really way too much to cover on this topic, but I'll try to touch on what I've seen, both as a boy who went through scouting and now as a Scoutmaster, and based on reactions from parents and other adults in my district how it will affect scouting locally.   1. Homosexuality in scouting.     a. It already happens, and those troops that are willing to accept it and have a charter organization that will accept it, do. Those organizations that will not, do not. This applies from the top down, adults through youth membership.     b. Predatory behavior can occur at ANY age. From same age youth/adults, older/younger youth, and adults/youth.     c. Youth Protection should be enforced on ALL fronts. Be it bullying, sexual advances/abuse, harassment, or physical abuse.   2. Scouting as a Religious organization     a. This is up to each individual troop's Charter Organization     b. Each charter organization "owns" the troop that it charters. Yes, it is the "boys' troop", however the organization sets the rules under which it may operate.     c. This national decision attempts to force individual organizations to accept membership of individuals who do not subscribe to the same faith of the aforementioned charter org.   To quote Hershemeister, who quotes from the BSA's own website: Here we find that yes, the BSA does proclaim any specific faith.   However   It is overlooked that "Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life." This statement allows for a Charter Organization to set the rules for how a troop will operate with regard to religion.   Indeed, a troop that is chartered with an American Legion post or Rotary Club will be run and have potentially differing faith principles than one that is chartered by a Baptist or Methodist church. Even those that meet at one church will have different religious principles than another that may even be of the same denomination or basic faith.   3. So, what about this new policy?      a. Face value: scouting as a whole now accepts openly gay youth.              i. There will be an eventual push for openly gay adult leaders. Boys who age out at 18 will want to stay involved.             ii. Is there some magic change from 17 years 11 months and 29 days to 18 years that really changes a person that much?            iii. Why is a gay leader not ok, but a boy who is almost there and is serving in youth leadership roles in his troop ok?      b. Individual troops should be able to restrict membership according to their charter organizations rules and beliefs.              i. The current wording of the new policy doesn't state this.             ii. I suspect we'll get this confirmation later. We'll see.      c. A lot of troops in my local district will either disband or continue restricting membership, and these same troops will likely choose to not participate in activities with troops that allow any boy.      d. Overall membership in my local district will decline or appear to decline as troops stop participating in events with other troops/ disband.   What does this mean for me? No idea. Will I stay in scouting? Can't tell at the moment, but I'll probably stay. Too much good to be done.  What is my Charter Org doing? We haven't met yet.   That's really all I've been able to muster with regard to this policy. I don't know anything about corporate or individual donations affecting the top level. I don't know polling statistics. I'm not here to talk right or wrong, or to slam one faith or another based on how they choose to discriminate.   I can say it's been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'll get back to my seat now and keep reading.   EDIT: fixed a sentence fragment.

too funny.    I did scouts with my oldest grandson for two years.  I don't know that any of the scouts were gay, boy scouts or cubs, and I doubt any of the leaders were.  But there were several ( imho) weirdo's involved in it all.  I just chalked up up to people being what they are and not worrying much about it.  Live and let live, yanno.   I did it for my grandson to be involved, met some very nice people.  I never let my true feeling known about anything really.  But them trying to force me to be a churchgoer really ate at me.  I was asked multiple times what church I attended and whenever I actually admitted to not going to church I was told every time that it was okay as long as I had a personal relationship with God.  I just smiled and nodded.  I was there to help my grandson and help the other kids in his den and pack so I ignored all the church stuff.   One incident about did me in though.  The entire pack met inside of the church that sponsored his pack to learn about the popcorn sales process.   They actually stood at the altar and pushed popcorn sales.  I sat in a pew listening attentively.  Happened to be wearing a ball cap.  One of the the boy scout adult leader actually came up to me and told me " take that hat off and show some respect while you are in a church" I was dumbfounded.  It was all I could do to not ask the guy if he ever heard the story of Jesus and the money changers.   I was pissed but just nodded and removed my hat.  What a bunch of hypocrite's.  Use the church as a church and I assure you I would have not worn a hat, but to peddle popcorn it did not seem like much of a church at the moment.   Anyway...   Homosexuals are not pedophiles.  It is damn ignorant to say that they are.   Are gay boy scouts as likely to rape non gay scouts as a hetero scout is likely to rape a girl?  Hell NO!   Neither is a very likely scenario.  Sex has no place in scouting,  it is about teaching boys to become upstanding citizens.   I could care less if a scout or a leader is gay anymore than I care of they are heterosexual,  none of that matters.   My grandson was a productive scout, we participated in most events and he earned a wide assortment of badges and awards.  We did camp outs hikes, outings, den and pack meetings.  He lost interest after his second year and never asked to go back for a third so I let it go.  He does football.      Oddly enough, I was a card carrying scout leader for those two years,  and when we did not come back after football season for a third year I was not contacted one time by anyone in his pack to ask where we were.   I am pretty much glad they didn't now. 

I'm a cub scout leader for my son's pack. If I ever heard any of my boys talking about sex AT ALL I'd be having a chat with their parents. It's got no business in the pack.

Gay, straight... I don't see how sexual orientation one way or the other should be a topic of discussion during scouting activities. It's inappropriate. I was a scout until I was 10 or 11. We knew who the queer kids were, just like in school. I don't see how it affected anything other than them being made fun of for being girly. Maybe that will change. Other than that, anyone bringing up sexual orientations (hetero or otherwise) should not be doing so during scouting activities, so what's the problem?

How about this - we just stop celebrating everyone's sexual proclivities. As long as the adults aren't molesting the kids lets just stop talking about it so much. Whatever happened to basic decency wen people wouldn't dare talk about their sexual relations in public? Jeez

Maybe Zimmerman WAS being a busy-body and shouldn't have gotten involved. Maybe he shouldn't have followed Martin to see where he went. Maybe he shouldn't have confronted him and/or asked him what he was up to. BUT, none of that is illegal, none of that warrants being physically assaulted, and none of that justifies a murder charge. In far too many cases, by the time the cops show up to a non-emergency call like this started out as the bad guy is long gone. All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Well Zimmerman may not be an angel, but I think he was doing the right thing by keeping a suspicious looking person in sight so he could report back to the cops.

some how I absolutely believe Jesus would say gay kids should be scouts the same as straight kids.   No where in any cub scout literature is it mentioned you gotta believe in a certain God.  no where in the scout pack I was involved with did it say you gotta be a Methodist.    And it amazes me that a church would not accept a sinner into their flock.  What a f'd up deal that is.  No wonder I have ZERO interest in organized religion.  Organized religion does not want me because I am a sinner too.

your correct......and if Martin had gone on to the house he was staying at rather than jump Zimmermann, we wouldn't be talking it either. many times a person changes their mind about the road to take home and their life is forever changed.

Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman.    Zimmerman is on trial for stopping that assault.

In high school there were probably many compromising photos taken from me. Kids smoke pot and drink. It doesn't prove anything in regard to what happened; it's just an attempt at character assassination. If they bring that into court they need to bring Zimmerman's previous run-ins with the law as well. It baffles me that folks will scream about how Z was never convicted of assaulting a police officer although he was charged, yet are all about focusing on Martin's behavior for which HE never charged. How does that make sense?

Zimmerman was NOT a robust muscle-bound 250 pounder. He was a short doughy, out of shape fat guy. Even at 6'3" and only 140 pounds, I bet your average 17 yr old kid is lean, quick, and strong enough to whoop the crap out him. If I saw them squared up against one another in a street fight my money would be on TM, for sure. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI[/media]

I know we all like to complain about cops every now and then but this video reminds us about the dangers they face every day.     The office was making a traffic stop and took two rounds to the chest(vest) and one round grazed his forehead.   To all of our TGO officers, stay safe and be careful out there.   http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e99_1369261411  

Yall really think this is new to any organisations in the USA? You think gays just now are gay and want to join clubs?   They all have gays in it.. and  they are everywhere.. oh no .. the horror..!!!   Seriously.. its nothing new.. and you all get bend out of shape because now its official......   Silly.. just silly...

  All people are welcome in the church but not all are welcome to join. Joining means you agree with and adhere to certain principles and moral stadards, otherwise you simply have a social group that has no point. Church is not about being perfect. It is however, about working towards that objective.   While homosexuals are free to worship and attend anywhere they may choose, they are not free to change fundamental beliefs or principals. It would be like a Muslim attending a Southern Baptist Church and then demanding they change their beliefs because they are offensive to him. Can't happen? It already is.   This whole thing about gays in the Boy Scouts has nothing to do with the boys who are members who may or may not be gay. IIRC sexuality is not a part of the BSA curriculum. It has to do with mandating that the organization allow leadership that contradicts its own principals and beliefs in order to fundamentally change core beliefs.   If there is that much demand for gay scouts then by all means start a gay scout group but quite trying to mandate that the BSA equivocate for a few.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Thank you Robert, you have summed this matter up quite well IMO. It's somewhat surprising how many people find homosexuals to be completely immoral and untrustworthy yet at the same time would deny gay boys the opertunity to join an organization centered around building morals and trustworthiness. I don't get it.

I'm reminded of an old adage about "if you ever find the perfect church, don't become a member. You will only ruin it."

Sorry you had all this bad luck with Chrysler. I bought my 1998 durango in 1999 from the local chevy dealer in Tullahoma, same owner of the dodge dealership in town as well. Didn't have a problem  then and still when i just go to look at new cars at the same dealerships, I don't have a problem either. Any dealership that wants your business will go out of their way to help you if they really want your business.   Before all this though, I remember hearing about some older gentleman driving up to the chevy dealership in a beat up old pickup truck. Nobody gave him the time of day nor paid attention to him. He left. wait 2 hours later, The dealership getsa phone call from the chevy dealership in an adjacent town telling them they missed out on a corvette sale. It was the same older gentleman, traded his old truck and enough cash in change inthe bed of the truck to pay for a brand new corvette.   Things changed after that.

Scout Oath On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.   Scout Law A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent

There shouldn't have to be an internal vote on whether to allow gays. I wasn't asked to make a statement of heterosexuality as part of the gruelling onboarding questionnaire. I'm pretty sure if there was a merit badge for dating girls, I'd have tried to earn one. I don't even recall a "who digs chicks the most" contest at the Winter Camporee. We played basketball, built campfires, walked around in the woods hunting snipe, and other cool stuff. Ocassionally somebody might call somebody else a fag if they couldn't climb down out of a tree on their own. Otherwise, nobody's sexuality was ever called into question. In fact, it would be pretty inappropriate to discuss it all.

  How dare they demand to be treated like normal people?  The nerve of some people!

Agreed. When a Christian organization for children is allowed to be "bullied" into compromising their religious faith to accommodate people who do not share their basic tenants, values or beliefs, essentially corrupting the organization's premise for existing in the first place, this nation as we once knew it is doomed, doooooooooomed I tellzya! I am not kidding btw, very serious subject, I just like typing "doomed, dooooooooomed I tellzya!" Because it makes me look cool kind of like Fonzi, only without the painful herpies or the gay leather jacket... wait ... what? To be fair, 61% of voting members of the BSoA voted in favor off this. They weren't exactly bullied. They could have just as easily voted against it, just like they did with allowing openly gay leaders.

It can't be racism on the part of the dealership you know...just watch any cable news outlet and you'll here Sharpton and Jackson and their ilk proclaiming that only white people can be racists

I was making a quick run to the store today. I am a stay at home dad, so it means I had my 2 little ones with me. My daughter (2yo) was using an IPad to trace her ABC's. My son (1yo) was playing a matching game on my phone. They both were being very good and causing no problems at all. A lady, probably in her 40's, felt the need to give me a parenting lesson right there in the produce section. She let me know that sticking them in front of an electronic device was no better than not parenting at all. She continued to tell me that my style of parenting is what is wrong with this world. She also stated that if this is how I parent that my kid would be better off in a single parent home. That was when I lost it and yelled, that is the first time I lost my cool in front of my kids. I never swore at her and never called her names, i just told her that my kids are happy, healthy, and well taken care of and that she needed to mind her own buisness. I should have stopped there, but I did not. I continued to tell her that my kids have more manners than she does an I would not be surprised if they were smarter than her. As she stood there in shock, I told my kids to say good bye and started to push the cart away. Both my kids said good bye and waved. What happened next surprised me, 5-6 moms in the area started clapping, apparently they even heard what she said to me. I get comments about my parenting all the time from strangers all the time. I don't understand why people feel the need to give dads advice. I have seen moms blow cigarette smoke in a kids face without a peep from anyone, but tell me that I need to make sure that my kids are wearing hats even though it is 60+ degrees out. All the advice is followed by them telling my kids that it is ok that daddy didn't know.

  Many atheists see mathematics, science, and logic as their higher powers.   An agnostic like me "worships" as yet unknowable possibilities, the grand mysteries of the cosmos.   - OS

BSoA changed their policy. No one forced them. I fully support their right to exclude gays from their organization, just like I support the right of former benefactors not to contribute funding any longer. If BSoA changes their policy back I'm on board 100%. Their organization, their rules.

The morel values of this country and it people are being lost, if not gone now.

I got 9mm for $17 for FMJ 50 rounds and $25 for 50 rounds of HP. Then in .40 was $23 for 50 fmj. I got a mini brick 325 rounds of .22lr federal match for $25. Still high in price, but is coming back slowly.

  Weight is totally irrelevant, contrary to what some people think.   Unless wrestling it involved, then it definitely is.

Thanks for posting this. We all need to be reminded of how much danger law enforcement face each day.

You're right, rape and murder have nothing on 2 consenting humans kissing. Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

Wow.

A friend of mine that went to the Air Force Academy sent this link to me.   As an early honor, I'd like to say thank you to a man I did not know personally but am indebted to for his service and acts of selflessness.      http://patriotpost.us/alexander/18325 

Definitely wear the helmet. A helmet is much cheaper than a CAT scan. I know of a woman in Camden that rode around the neighborhood years ago and just fell over at about 2-5 mph, hit her head and died. It's not how fast you are going but how far you fall before the noggin hits the pavement. Have fun and be careful. I ride about 3000 - 4000 miles a year and it's great fun and good for you too. Get involved with a local club and see how much more fun you can have.

  Okay, I'll debate within those confines. Christianity says that homosexual sexual acts are sins, but doesn't seem to  being homosexual per se.   The Catholic church, 25% of Christianity in the US (and half or more world wide),  even allows gay priests, as long as they, like straight ones, remain celibate.   Is the BSA condoning gay sexual acts? Does it condone straight ones?  No to both. Just eliminating a label as cause for exclusion.   Don't gay youngsters who want to be Scouts already join? Or will there now be a big influx of swishy girly-boy cross dressers beating down the doors to go get dirty hiking and building campfires and whatnot?   - OS

I know I haven't been a member of this site long enough that anyone here really cares what I think, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway. I just purchased a 9mm handgun in Feb. I currently have around 650 rounds of plinking ammo and about 150 rounds of self defense ammo (more than I'll probably ever use for self defense, hopefully)  and have shot up several hundred rounds at the range. All of this has been purchased since Feb.. For the practice rounds I have not paid more than $22 for a box of 50. It has been out there. It's a little higher than I like but not unreasonable. I absolutely refuse to pay any more than that and think anyone who buys the over priced ammo from resellers are just idiots. But just because I think its stupid doesn't mean that they should not be able to do it or that someone doesn't have a right to sell it for extremely outrageous price. I do, however have a problem with the scalpers that take all their relatives and friends with them to Walmart and buy up all the ammo on a regular basis. I also have a problem with Walmart when they always put out the ammo on the same days at the same times. It just feeds the scalpers and makes it harder for the regular customer to be able to purchase ammo. I don't even stop to check at Walmarts anymore because I know there won't be anything there anyway. All I know is that this argument needs to end. It is solving nothing and just causing bad feelings. Just my 2 cents, like it or not. I'm not going to argue either side of the issue.

:rock:   :panic:   :rock:   :panic:  :rock:   :panic:   :rock:   :panic:   :rock:     we're going to have fun

I would agree with this but I tend to doubt that most gays are abusive. If we as gun owners start getting on the bandwagon of blaming a whole group for the actions of a few we may as well just give up now. Oh wait, this is different. This is for the children.

Yup. I usually have some 2ft square folded sheets of paper in bag, will put one of them up with new scope, fire a couple rounds. If on paper can go from there, if not, looking through the bore is great way to make initial large adjustments. With .22LR, doesn't much matter since ammo is (well, was) so cheap you can just fire at dirt or whatever to get in the ballpark and you didn't much mind the extra ammo involved and can't see through the bore with non bolt action models anyway. Note, you really need to lock the rifle down pretty well, at minimum with a bipod, and bags better; it's an exercise in frustration to do a precise sight in with just elbow on table. For 5.56/.223, a 50 yard zero has much less deviation from 25 to 250 yards than a 25 yard one and seems to have become perhaps the standard for us civilians, considering the distances at most of our ranges (or even likely distances involved in EOTWAWKI). 50 yard zero comes back to about same at 200. 100 yard zero is pert good too, though. Here's ballpark data. Note that any given round/bullet weight will vary. 'Bout to try out a new Nikon P-223 scope on my AR, but have a different problem -- must admit right off the bat this thing seems to be much smarter than moi, as I don't understand some of the controls and markings on the turrets and reading both the manual and online hasn't helped much! Gonna try and give it the shakedown tomorrow, will probably have questions for you experts. - OS

  It costs money that could go towards ammo.

You have to understand something; the staff at many, perhaps even most car dealerships have their heads firmly inserted up their nether regions.   I was once the proud owner of a 1976 Firebird TransAm 50th anniversary edition (this was the forerunner to the "Smoky and the Bandit) Black/Gold TransAm).  There were less than 3,000 made (not enough for each Pontiac dealer to even get one) and less than 600 with the Hurst Hatch T-Tops (it was the fist car to ever come with a T-top). When I was thinking about buying a 1979 model to replace it, I had gone to the largest Pontiac dealer in Seattle to do a deal.  However, when I went to have the trade-in appraised the I had two salesmen and the Sales Manager argue with me; claiming that Pontiac had "never made that car" and that I must have had it done myself which decreased the value of the car (which was exactly the opposite of what thet car was doing in the market at the time).   Needless to say...I was pissed. Not only that they would diss my car but that they would stand there and arguel with me about it.   I realize that it ws a somewhat rare car...I can understand that it was just a trick to not give me a fair price for my trade-in...I can understand taht these sales people may have never seen one...I can believe (somewhat) that they didn't realize Pontiac had made it But, what I found truly amazing is that there guys were so incredibly stupid to stand there and argue with me and piss me off!!!   Well; they didn't get to sell me a new TransAm...I went the next day to a much smaller dealership, ordered a new 1979 and did the deal with them.   The moral of the story is, while not universally true, you probaly can't overestimate the stupidity of most car sales staff/dealerships. :)   http://www.78ta.com/limitededition.htm

10-ring, it sounds like it's time for you to just make a hard fast rule about salesmen entering your home. This might be considered sexist by a few but the fact is most men consider it their responsibility to provide the safety for the home, whatever form that might take. If that is the case then you get to make the rules regarding it. 

  Pretty much my sentiments.   If it's serious enough for the gun to come out, perp must make a very quick decision indeed how he's gonna behave from there. Of course, if he has a weapon of any kind, he's already made it.   - OS