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Hummm...I was under the impression that we have neighborhood watches (encouraged by law enforcement agencies) and that most of us carry precisely because the "cops" are usually not going to be there at the precise moment we need them.  :shrug:

My dogs are like children to me. I'll leave it at that.

If we stop speculating or making arguments for one side or the other this thread would be dead and we would have to wait for the trial to end. Where’s the fun in that. I don’t have a dog in this fight; this ruling will have absolutely zero impact on me being able to defend myself. I do enjoy a good conversation/debate on legal matters. Nothing is written in stone. I could argue either side of this case and make a compelling argument. That is what is going to happen in the closing arguments and the jury will determine who presented a better case.

You're right, I'm assuming. Based on my knowledge, experience and what has been released regarding this case, my educated assumption is that Zimmerman initiated and/or escalated this confrontation whilst carrying and knowing he would end this with his firearm if it turned physical. I'm not a prosecutor, defense attorney, juror, judge, DA or law enforcement officer, so the onus is not on me to provide proof or evidence. It's called an opinion. Your life experiences may cause you to come to a different conclusion, and I'm okay with that. The thing that drives me nuts is folks who willfully refuse to acknowledge that the possibility exists that the victim here is the deceased; it shows prejudice. I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Trevon went out with the intention of being some bad boy gangbanger and assaulting poor white Hispanics with Skittles. I just don't believe that is the case. In fact, before all this blew up and I was following this as a local story, I made the assumption Martin was up to no good simply based on the location and the incredibly biased story written by the Orlando Sentinel. My opinions changed as more info came out. If more info comes out in favor of Zimmerman I'm prepared to accept that too. I don't think this character assault has any bearing on what happened that night.

This is just conversation, speculation and opinions from all of us.   What would I have done? Well I wouldn’t have jumped out of my truck and started following/chasing someone that had committed no crime. The Police were on their way; I would have let them handle it. I don’t get in physical confrontations when I’m armed…. It’s reckless.   If I’m in a position of having my head pounded in the pavement its either because I’m a willing participant in a fight where I let my azz overload my mouth, in which case I can’t use a gun to end it and would have to rely on other means. Or, it is an unprovoked attacked in which I could shoot my assailant dead with no remorse or fear of prosecution. Yes, you could die in a fight; although it is highly unlikely. If you are so worried about that don’t do stupid stuff that puts you in that position. That is your responsibility.   Badazzes don’t run. They don’t run from civilians and many don’t even run from the cops. If Martin was the thug badazz many of you are portraying him to be he would have gone heads up against Zimmerman; he would not have run. I think he was probably scared and may have even seen the gun. With fear and adrenalin pumping he reacted by trying to stop the threat.  That’s mere speculation on my part because we can’t ask him; Zimmerman shot him to death.   I don’t think Zimmerman was out for blood. I think he was a cop wannabe that thought he was on patrol in the neighborhood. He committed a reckless act that led to the death of a kid that was committing no crime, but “looked suspicious” to Zimmerman.  That is unfortunate for him; it cost him his life.   We didn’t hear about this because it was a white guy killing a black kid. We heard about this because the cops wanted to arrest Zimmerman and when DA refused; the community reacted. From day 1 the pro Zimmerman side has been saying that the cops said it was justified. It has been shown time and time again that is just not true; the cops wanted an arrest warrant that night. It is the DA’s discretion on whether or not to file charges. It is the communities right to react when they think he made a mistake. That is what happened and the Governor and the Attorney General decided to replace him; that is their discretion.   What do I think is driving this big debate? I think some are afraid that if Zimmerman is found guilty their right to defend them will be compromised. I don’t feel that way; I wouldn’t be in that situation and if I was I would fight and win or take my azz whipping for being stupid; not pull my gun and kill someone.   Is this a racist issue? I don’t know. Would Zimmerman have stopped a white kid walking down the street? He said “They always get away” how many times has he done this? Has any of the people that “got away” from him, or been stopped by him come forward?   The defense team is reduced to blaming the victim using prior acts that had no bearing on this incident; that is a very dangerous course of action to take when you have someone that has never been arrested vs. someone that has been arrested for violence.  Pot and having a gun? You have to be kidding me. How many of you here have smoked pot and own guns? I would be more worried about that becoming an issue in a self-defense trial than some of the other stuff going on. Did he have these defense attorney’s when he lied about his assets and his wife was arrested? Either his attorneys are incompetent or he outright lied to them also. That won’t help him.   Yes, Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch program. But the cops always stress that you do not engage; you are eyes and ears only. Why? Because of stuff like this.   Zimmerman is hosed no matter what happens. I was appalled when the AG refused to arrest the members of the New Black Panther Party that publically put out a hit on Zimmerman. That is a crime in any state I have been in; maybe it isn’t in Florida. But that is what he has to deal with if he gets off.   Do I think he will be convicted? No, I think it will end in a hung jury. This is going to be a tough case to get a jury to agree on.   These are simply my opinions on a very high profile case. I believe Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty and he deserves a fair trial. I’m sure the trial will be televised and we will get to see the evidence and make our own judgments about the witnesses.    

Rog, but the few ammo outlets left that are selling for a decent price are cleaned out too. I guess it'll be moot here in the near future since things will be getting back to normal soon, but for right now I can't go anywhere in town and get the ammo I want, yet there is more ammo advertised on Armslist than ever EVER before.... you don't at all find that odd? This would be a strong indicator of an overpriced market and I would expect prices to fall pretty quickly and also for more suppliers to enter the market hoping to take advantage of the higher prices. One important factor to consider is that there are a large number of people who are regular shooters who used to buy as they need and are now building a reserve stockpile. This is creating a high temporary demand of likely double or even more than usual and will only stop when people feel they have a decent reserve. I predict the 22 supply situation will continue through at least the rest of this year.

So....it's just people who try to protect their neighborhoods you have a problem with? My neighborhood saw a rash of burglaries in 2011 so in 2012, guess what...we formed a neighborhood watch.  Since then, burglaries have decreased from two or three a week to about one per month.  I suppose we could have just sat in our homes and let the cops do their job but I for one prefer less burglaries.

Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman.    Zimmerman is on trial for stopping that assault.

Since the debate continues I will ask what I asked in the first epic thread and got nothing but politician responses.   What would YOU DO as a licensed and permitted handgun carrier if someone was on top of you slamming the back of your head into the pavement?   The events leading up to your potential death or permanent disability are really irrelevent.  At the point Zimmerman fired the shot heard round the country he was in such a postition and the events leading up to that do not justify his "taking an ass-whoopping".

Got some news coming in the next few days...   Stay tuned for updates.

Just got these. My favorites so far. Fit, finish, and function is perfect on both knives. One thing I'll say about the 300... If you enjoy seeing that expanding wet spot on the front of some liberal's Dockers, just whip that sucker out in the Starbucks and lop off the top of your sugar pack. :). Evil black knife.

Decided we needed some family time away from the phone and computers, so I took the baby and the wife out to LBL today. Did some fishing at bards lake. Not to much biting on the bank where we were at other than blue gill. Most of them little ones but about a dozen or so keeper size but threw them all back. Today was more about making memories than catching fish but its always nice when you can do both. I know my little girl wont remember it but its a trip my wife and I will never forget. [url=http://s987.photobucket.com/user/cwillard1983/media/Paige_zpscf4f9885.jpg.html][/URL]

   Innocent is a pretty self-explanatory term. There is no indication (or even accusation as far as I know) that Martin was committing or suspected of committing any crime. He did not fit the profile of what Zimmerman thought someone walking in that neighborhood should be. That profiling resulted in him getting into a confrontation and being killed. Was be profiled because he was black, looked like a thug, or just because he wasn’t known to Zimmerman; I don’t know. If I was prosecuting this case I would be looking for those that Zimmerman had stopped or called the Police on and see if I could find out. I would want to know who he was talking about and the circumstances when he said “They always get away”. Maybe they have already done that. Is Zimmerman innocent? Nope, an innocent kid is dead because of the reckless circumstances he put in play. He could be acquitted of the charges against him; but that doesn’t mean he is innocent. I am well aware of the fact that we have a legal system and not a justice system. No matter what the verdict is (assuming there is a trial) a bunch of folks are going to complain justice was not served.

Why bother having any immigration laws at all if no-one is going to either abide or bother to enforce them anyway?

I hope that we don't use that logic, because if we do my actions between the age of 14 and the time that I joined the Army would have made me public enemy #1.

Yeah, I'm no expert either but the definition of 2nd degree murder does not fit the evidence we know of currently. Even if Zimmerman did indeed initiate the confrontation with the knowledge and intention to use deadly force to end the confrontation it still doesn't rise to the level of 2nd degree murder. I figure there will be some sort of witness testimony that we are yet unaware of, otherwise he will be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder. For those who think that initiating confrontation then shooting a person when in fear for your life is legal, you should REALLY familiarize yourselves with cases where that happened and the individual was RIGHTLY convicted of murder. Most recently I can recall the case where a guy picked a fight with three dudes, then shot them when they started kicking his ass. Undoubtedly I will be in fear for my life if I'm getting curb stomped by three dudes, but if I started the fight none of that matters. I don't see what it is so damn hard for folks to swallow that. If it was okay I (in theory) can go around picking fights with 7ft 300 lb dudes, then shoot them as soon as they take a swing. Whether or not who swung first doesn't matter, it boils down to intent.

  Is he becoming a RINO?  No, he already was one with a just a little more polish.

You are smarter than that Robert. You are dumbing down your logic for the approval of the lynch mob. I approve of neighborhood watches. I don't approve of watchmen doing investigations or injecting themselves into the action. Whatever that young man was doing, Zimmermans only responsibility was to observe and report.

For second degree murder they must have some sort of evidence that we aren't aware of, otherwise I'd not cast a vote to convict (based on what we know). Manslaughter though, I believe the evidence will point to that and his attorneys will have to make a pretty good argument to get him out of it.

I think the entire problem stems from having way too many busybodies in this country.   There are so many, on both sides of the aisle, that want to force each other to accept their viewpoint as the correct one.  What happened to people just minding their own damn business?  Seems to me that we all would be much better off if we did that very thing.   If you are a religious person and an individual or organization's behavior, practices, or whatever offends you, tough ****.  Unless it somehow impedes your ability to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, close your mouth and move on.  The same thing can be said of those in the minority status.  If some organization doesn't accept your kind, bfd, wash your hands of them and go about your business.

Is it immoral for a father to kill his daughter because she brought shame to his family? Is it immoral to behead a person for not believing in a diff way of a diff god? Is it immoral to to lay with another man? Just where do we draw thew line? I have beliefs and want to hang around like minded people that I feel good about. Is it immoral to feel that way? If others dont feel the same way about the things like I do they should not impose their beliefs on me our the people that I hang around with. I believe in God, I use the 10 commandments, am I immoral? I do not walk up to anyone and tell them they have to do as I do in these beliefs. The more immoral we become the closer to the end we get.

How does it make sense? Probably because of the out & out distortion of Trayvon's character was portrayed as a 6 yr old angel, who was skipping merrily & innoccently down to the store to fetch candy & iced-tea, when mean evil white guy gunned him down in cold blood for simply being black. Now folks are taking a closer look at this lil angel & not liking the fact we were lied too, had the facts purposely distorted by folks who had a racial agenda & now having to watch Zimmerman go through the grinder for defending himself against a brutal assault at the hands of this lil angel. "Justice for Trayvon" *spit* has already been served, now it's time to drop the obviously trumped up charges on Zimmerman & arrest Trayvon's parents or "auntie" or who ever it was who hid/covered up the fact that Trayvon had planted dope plants & a stolen handgun in his bedroom and charge them with hindering a homicide investigation.

Like what rules and laws are you talking about. If its abortion, that's a moral issue not religious. I consider it about personal responsibility. If you do not want a child then protect yourself or do not have sex. Our actions have consequeces . Having unprotected sex can have consequences. It is not the baby's fault. So why make the baby pay with it's life.

Generally speaking, there is far more pressure from the right to end abortion. Also, generally speaking, the Right tends to base their opinions on religious beliefs. That's really the only point I was trying to make.    As I stated before, I'm not gay or religious. Because of this, the gay issue couldn't mean less to me. My biggest problem, is the fact that we have so many on both sides who like to complain about some other group forcing their ideals, all while acting as if they don't do the very same thing. You can play semantics all day long, but as someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I think both sides are full of crap, turning it into something it isn't.     For whatever reasons, BSA enrollment has dropped nearly 50% in the last 30-40 years, almost 15% in the last 10 or so years. Unless there's a mass exodus — which I don't believe there will be — the loss of members won't be anything new to the organization. As difficult as it is for many to swallow, the times and society are constantly changing.   As I said before, there are battles and wars I'm willing to fight, but this ain't one of them. Some claim this issue is somehow a political ploy by the Left, but I think you're giving the opposition far too much credit. If it is a ploy, you just fell into their trap by taking your eye off the ball. If a ploy at all, it's nothing more than a distraction, and I'm not willing to give them that much credit.    Sadly, much like the BSA, the right-leaning Republicans are a dying breed. If we push away the minorities, the gays, and anyone else we don't completely agree with, we are left all alone. If you wish to stand by your convictions, no matter the outcome, I'm all for that. On the flip-side, if this is the path you choose, be willing to accept the consequences. Personally, I think the Right could be a little more flexible on certain subjects. Let God sort them out.  

Sick people that show up at a hospital are there because they are sick and want to be healed. Sinners who show up at church to cleanse their soul are always welcome. They find themselves unwelcome only when they deny their sins are wrong or asking that they be ignored. So if a church bans unrepentant gays, how can they expect to be welcome? I can't fathom how being anti-abortion is a "right/religious-right" crusade. It's got nothing to do with one side forcing their religious views on others - unless murder is only morally wrong to people who are religious . Everyone should stand up for an unborn, innocent child in danger of being killed.

I can't believe that came from an adult. Your kid must have hacked your account.

You didn't really think these people earned their fortunes by good ol' fashioned hard work and American ingenuity did you?!?

Folks, I have been scratching my head on this since day one. And as more and more time goes by, and based on the information available to me via the internet....Zman is guilty of something. What? I don't know. We'll see I guess. I feel that that whole game was on Zmans end of the field!   Dave S

I change mine between 4-5k. The owners manual on my truck says 7.5k. I went just over that amount once (took me a year to rack up that mileage) and the old oil that came out was awful. I don't like the idea of old funky oil in my engine, so I change more frequently than needed. I plan on driving my truck for the next 14 years or until the democrats ban them, whichever comes first.

every owners manual I have had always claimed 5K as the change interval.   I saw a commercial last night for Mobil 1 brand oil and it claimed 15k as an interval.   On my new truck the owners manual claims 7500 to 10k as the normal interval for normal driving usage.   The service manager at my dealer told me to bring it in at 5k to get it done.  Out of curiosity I just checked the info on the onboard computer and with 4k in milage on the truck it claims oil is at 63% right now.

Team Edward!

You do realize there are other places to buy ammo than wal Mart? To create a monopoly you'd have to buy out every gun store, big box retailer and Internet store. The notion that a few profiteers grabbing up wal mart ammo is the cause of the shortage doesn't hold water as an argument other than to say that it causes a shortage at that specific wal mart.

I don't see a problem.  If you want/need something, you pay the price necessary to obtain it.    I'd like a new Ford truck for about $3500.  There isn't a dealer that will sell one at that price, are they all scalpers?

You're right, he'd probably be a vegetable and Trayvon would be a hero for stopping "profiling" by the "white guy"

your correct......and if Martin had gone on to the house he was staying at rather than jump Zimmermann, we wouldn't be talking it either. many times a person changes their mind about the road to take home and their life is forever changed.

It doesn't matter what either of them were before that night or what they aspired to be. I'll maintain that if the "watch captain“ had let the real cops do their job that night we wouldn't be talking abouth this.

The two piles of rifles were probably left as payment to you for your troubles. 

Impeachment proceedings begin in the House.  ;)

  Absolutely. Fifteen years ago, I went for an easy ride to clear the cobwebs. I was in a senior retirement community and didn't plan to leave the community... just a quick 10 minute ride. I went into a cul-de-sac and made a u-turn at the end. I was moving less than 10mph. A mower had chopped up and thrown a foot long section of tree branch on the road. The road was partially shaded. In the dappled sunlight I never even saw it.  It flipped me over the handlebars and I landed on the back of my head.   I was unconcious for a while, but the wheels were still spinning when I looked around. My helmet was cracked, but still intact on my head. I walked home and forced myself to stay awake until my wife got home. I even wrote her a note in case I passed out. I had headaches for weeks. I'm sure I would have either had permanent brain damage or be dead without the helmet.    So... On a short ride in a neighborhood with no traffic with a 25mph speed limit on a dead-end cul-de-sac I had a potentially fatal bicycle crash. I always wear a helmet. I buy a new helmet every 2-3 years.

  All people are welcome in the church but not all are welcome to join. Joining means you agree with and adhere to certain principles and moral stadards, otherwise you simply have a social group that has no point. Church is not about being perfect. It is however, about working towards that objective.   While homosexuals are free to worship and attend anywhere they may choose, they are not free to change fundamental beliefs or principals. It would be like a Muslim attending a Southern Baptist Church and then demanding they change their beliefs because they are offensive to him. Can't happen? It already is.   This whole thing about gays in the Boy Scouts has nothing to do with the boys who are members who may or may not be gay. IIRC sexuality is not a part of the BSA curriculum. It has to do with mandating that the organization allow leadership that contradicts its own principals and beliefs in order to fundamentally change core beliefs.   If there is that much demand for gay scouts then by all means start a gay scout group but quite trying to mandate that the BSA equivocate for a few.

Scout Oath On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.   Scout Law A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent

There shouldn't have to be an internal vote on whether to allow gays. I wasn't asked to make a statement of heterosexuality as part of the gruelling onboarding questionnaire. I'm pretty sure if there was a merit badge for dating girls, I'd have tried to earn one. I don't even recall a "who digs chicks the most" contest at the Winter Camporee. We played basketball, built campfires, walked around in the woods hunting snipe, and other cool stuff. Ocassionally somebody might call somebody else a fag if they couldn't climb down out of a tree on their own. Otherwise, nobody's sexuality was ever called into question. In fact, it would be pretty inappropriate to discuss it all.

Christ boys. If I believe I need ammo for whatever reason and I have the available funds I'll buy it at whatever price I deem reasonable. You can take all your noble assertions about price gougers and hoarders and shove them up your a$$. 

  How dare they demand to be treated like normal people?  The nerve of some people!

I would agree with this but I tend to doubt that most gays are abusive. If we as gun owners start getting on the bandwagon of blaming a whole group for the actions of a few we may as well just give up now. Oh wait, this is different. This is for the children.

Back in my high school days, a routine after-school fight turned deadly.  Punchee, feel into a hedge, a stick punctured his eye, into the brain, and he died.  Puncher convicted and charged with involuntary man-slaughter.  Someone already alluded to the soccer referee.  Also recall the school principal/teacher that was punched breaking up a lunch room fight here in TN.  Never regained consciousness and died.  Point is:  ANY blow to the head, either directly or indirectly (hitting ground, pavement, etc) may result in severe pain, disfigurement, brain damage, permanent loss of consciousness, or death.  So as a result one can reasonably say they could fear such a result and resort to protecting themselves with deadly force.  Sure, one must consider the whole situation, but the primary point was that of an unprovoked attack.  I'm getting a little older now, I prefer my chances with the DA, given my mind-set.   mind-set:  the last thing I want to do is shoot someone.  Avoid, don't provoke, walk away, etc.

57 times - one for each state!

  I see a big difference in free market and what's going on with ammo IMO. It's pure greed and giving everyone that enjoys the shooting sports the finger.  It's the fact that the AH scalpers are buying up the ammo at normal prices from normal retailers by circumventing the rules and limits established by retailers trying to supply the general public and being fair with the supply. They're selfishly jerking it right out of circulation before normal buyers can buy at normal prices which sustains the shortage for their benefit. Then they mark it up 200% yet they don't pay taxes on the 200% profit which is further crapping on everyone including the honest taxpayer and the normal shooters that buy ammo. I don't buy from the scalpers. They can KMA.  I've been lucky I guess and have procured enough online and just lucked up on what I've needed and am pretty good now.  The last I bought was from Palmetto State Armory where I bought 40S&W for $26 a box of 50 which included shipping. Personally I'd love to see them start getting notices from the IRS on the tax issue.  They don't give a damn about us....why should we give a damn about them?

Bad Lip Reading did some great ones during the Presidential campaign, but I think this is my new favorite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR4lLJu_-wE&feature=player_embedded  

And one more great reason is when your 5.56 brass gets worn out and starts splitting case necks you can use them to make 300BO brass.