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Dont kid yourself.  Our society, despite its modern veneer is but a few days from killing one another over cigarettes and toilet paper.

All I know is I'm voting Against anyone who votes to restrict our gun rights.

  Well my words would get me in trouble because I am a simple person.    But I would fight this current crap with a series of questions for congress.... the sarcasm would have to be reworded a bit, but pretty much something like this, in a public, on the news, address to congress with a chance for response from the supposed leader of the supposed gun control task force (IE biden would respond).   1) If a mentally unstable person managed to get hired as a bus driver and drive off a mountain, killing 20+ 6 year olds and 10 adults, what measures would congress take to ensure that no children ever die in a bus again, would they ban high capacity busses, discriminate against mentally ill people for having the job, or what?   2) The shooter broke at least 20 laws intentionally, including murder, gun on school property, theft, breaking and entering, and more.  What special, magic law do you think he would obey that would have stopped this shooting?   3) AR-15s and other semi automaic rifles have been used in a very tiny fraction of 1% of all violent crimes committed with guns.  Why are we focused on this one weapon type that is almost never used? Also, the ar-15 is one of the most popular guns in the country -- so it is not only one of the least used in crime, its one of the most commonly owned, how do those lead you to believe the ar-15 is a problem weapon?   4) The school shooter reloaded at least 3 times estimated from number of shots fired.  How would a smaller magazine have changed anything?   5) More children die every year in the USA from vehicles than from guns.  What new laws are you going to enact to protect the children from these horrid machines?   6) There have been many who argue that armed teachers could have stopped this horrible crime, saving at least some of the lives.   Why are armed teachers and an end to no-gun zones like schools not being discussed as a way to deal with irrational violent people bent on killing children?   7) If the shooter had used a knife, as did the recent whacko in china, what laws would you be considering to prevent future stabbings?    8) If the shooter had used a bomb strapped to his chest, like an "atypical radical extremist whose religious preferences do not coincide with anyone elses in the known universe or anything like that" might do, what would you be doing to ban household chemistry that can be used to create deadly explosions such as ammonia, fertilizer, gasoline, or the like?   ....   I can do this all day.   I think an 8 hour session of this would make the point very, very clear.

Considering you just cut and pasted their search criteria, this thread should be causing blinking lights to go off at DHS while Jack Bauer prepares a dynamic entry through your front door to stop the next terrorist threat. At any rate, Feliz Navidad DHS analyst!

  Sell something now for a few dollars that you might never be able to replace.   That makes sense?

I was finished buying about the time of the election. Never a question in my mind that Obama would jump on his first opportunity. He's jumpin'.

As a college prof, I would LOVE to  be able to carry--many stories I could share.  I'll pay for any additional training and I don't need any pay raise (although I wouldn't turn it down).  Hope something can  be done!

I urge everyone out there rushing to buy all the guns, mags, and ammo their credit cards will hold, to consider putting it toward the NRA (or other 2A group if you wish).  When they are ringing you up at the register think about which is more important.    Image if half of the money spent in a panic this weekend went to the NRA, what our community can accomplish.   [B]This is not over yet, we have not lost. Put your money into the fight instead of preparing for defeat.[/B]

my wife.....or my glock....   i hope i never have to face that choice

the nra should come out stating that we need to enforce the current gun laws.  if we enforce the current gun laws we would not have these problems.  sometime you need to build more jails and keep them in for longer times.  take away the tv/radios in jail.  make jail like it use to be,,, no fun.  bring back the chain gang like what we had in the 60's.   seeing men cutting the right of way in 100 plus heat in august set me on the stright road.   i knew i did not want to be like others morons i knew in school.  it use to be, many mango season ago, you get in trouble, as a young man the judge gave you two options.  go to the chain gang or go see that nice army recuriter that  is out side the court room door.  had several friends that was given this option in the late 60's.   they did not take the chain gang option. 

My question is: is the 21st the last day of the Mayan calendar? If so, tomorrow is not the day we should be worried about, it's Saturday. That's the first day of nothing.

Nope.  Will never make it out of committee.   http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/boehner-won-t-commit-gun-control-votes-185455080--politics.html

All is not lost. Unplug for a minute and take your mind off things;     Where did "Piss Poor" come from? Interesting history.They used to use urine to tan animal skins, so families used to all pee in a pot.   And then once it was full it was taken and sold to the tannery...  if you had to do this to survive you were "Piss Poor". But worse than that were the really poor folk who couldn't even afford to buy a pot...They "didn't have a pot to piss in" and were the lowest of the low.   The next time you are washing your hands and complain because the water temperature  Isn't just how you like it, think about how things used to be. Here are some facts about the 1500's   Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May, and they still smelled pretty good by June.. However, since they were starting to smell, brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor. Hence the custom today of carrying a bouquet when getting married. Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, Then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children.  Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!" Houses had thatched roofs-thick straw-piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the cats and other small animals (mice, bugs) lived in the roof.  When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof.. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."   There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That's how canopy beds came into existence.   The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt.  Hence the saying, "Dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet, so they spread thresh (straw) on the floor to help keep their footing.  As the winter wore on, they added more thresh until, when you opened the door, it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entrance-way.  Hence: a thresh hold.   (Getting quite an education, aren't you?) In those old days, they cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always hung over the fire.  Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They ate mostly vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner, leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes stew had food in it that had been there for quite a while.  Hence the rhyme:“Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old." Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special.  When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth that a man could, "bring home the bacon."  They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and chew the fat.   Those with money had plates made of pewter.  Food with high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food,causing lead poisoning death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so, tomatoes were considered poisonous.   Bread was divided according to status.  Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the upper crust.   Lead cups were used to drink ale or whisky. The combination would sometimes knock the imbibers out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial.  They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom; “holding a wake."   England is old and small and the local folks started running out of places to bury people.  So they would dig up coffins and would take the bones to a bone-house, and reuse the grave.  When reopening these coffins, 1 out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive.  So they would tie a string on the wrist of the corpse, lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the graveyard shift) to listen for the bell; thus, someone could be, â€œsaved by the bell" or was "considered a dead ringer."  And that's the truth. Now, whoever said history was boring!!!   So get out there and educate someone!   Share these facts with a friend. Inside every older person is a younger person wondering,  "What the heck happened?" We'll be friends until we are old and senile.  Then we'll be new friends.   Smile, it gives your face something to do!

  Haven't posted in awhile, but all of this has made me check back in. Mike, you're right. I've seen alot of former staunch 2A people suddenly start saying "Well, maybe an AWB is ok if it will prevent this sort of thing." People on both sides are being led by the media like lambs to the slaughter.

It may not matter what we're OK with. Rational thought doesn't matter. Reality doesn't matter. The strategy has been to not give an inch, and I've always agreed with that. That may STILL be the strategy, but I'll leave that up to the NRA and our friends in the house. If a critical mass of people want something in this country, they'll get it.   We don't know what the House members are hearing from their districts. One thing's for sure... political suicide doesn't pay. The NRA's standard position is to not give an inch. If they change that position, it will be because they can't win it. They're in close touch with congress... count on it.

I dislike the "background check" process as much as anyone - we know it doesn't really stop criminals from getting guns and it especially can't stop someone from becoming a criminal after the purchase; maybe even weeks or years after the purchase.  However, would having to succumb to going through an FFL for all firearm transactions, including private party, be an reasonable trade to, say, keep being able to BUY weapons; especially those they wan to ban entirely because they "look mean"?  I would certainly prefer the background check if the alternative is banning many types of weapons.   Of course I don't like it but what exactly are we supposed to do?  We can talk about how we won't compromise our rights but what exactly does that mean?  How far are you willing to go? (no need to actually answer that; just proposing that people need to think about it...really think about it).   Of course there are no amount of gun laws of any kind that would have stopped this young man from doing what he did at Sandy Hook Elementary nor will any new gun laws stop the next one. But I'm sure you know, that doesn't matter.   People are so appalled by what happened that they are going to demand that something be done and, as is always the case with government, they'll address the symptom rather than the problem...as is always the case when a gun is involved, they'll blame the gun. Why?  Because it's so much easier to do so and because many people and especially those with a liberal mindset hate guns; even if they don't know why they hate guns.   We all know that if this disgusting, evil man had stolen a big dump truck and rammed his way into the school and killed twice as many children; NO ONE would be blaming the dump truck.   The real problem is not the gun or the dump truck; it's EVIL. We know evil exists, that's why most of us who carry, carry...we understand the very unpleasant reality that the ONLY thing that can stop an evil man with a gun is a good man with a gun who is willing and able to use it. But, no liberal politician and a lot of (alleged) conservative politicians want to say that because they don't want to be labeled as a nutcase or as someone who wants "military grade child-killing weapons" available to the general public.   Any way you slice it, we have an uphill battle coming...I think we'll be lucky to beat back very many of the proposals that will be coming out of DC. As James Yeager said in his video that I and others posted, we had better pull together and stop eating each other...we can't find ways to agree on how to push back on what's coming then nothing will stop it.

  So you're ok with having to run all private sales through an FFL?  How would that have stopped the shooting in CT?   We need to make a line in the sand, more gun control will only place law abiding citizens at greater risk...  Law abiding citizens must have ready access to the best self defense tools on the market.  PERIOD   I don't believe any amount of gun laws would have prevented this evil man from doing what he did, show me something that would have, and I might be willing to discuss how we can implement that and that alone...  but giving up private sales is a non-starter, this guy stole the firearms, a ban on private sales would increase the cost $35-50 per firearm transaction, plus another $10 to the state in the unconstitutional TICS fee.  That is $45-60 more for a $200 22lr?  pass.

Lately I've had a lot of people who have only recently started caring about firearms ask me about the first ban.  My answer to them is what it will be to you...   It was pretty bad but it's nothing to base your predictions on about what's coming down the pipe.  This is going to be much worse.

To be clear, I'm not going to renew until I hear what the NRA has to say at Friday's press conference.  If they stand with us as gun owners and fight against another so-called Assault Weapons Ban then I will sign up as a life member.  If they roll over, I'm done with them as an organization.   But I'll ping you for that # just in case.  Thanks.  :)

  Better odds on herding cats than swaying a liberal with logic and fact. Let alone the antichrist himself.   - OS

  But if we don't help the NRA, they can't help us, and WE are the NRA.  We all have to stick together and if everyone would simply send $5 it would make a big difference.

I love all this country has become if that is true.    mmmm pussies

Joe Biden is heading up this commitie....What could go wrong? :shrug:  :confused:

I hope msnbc starts demanding sock Control. Who "needs" a high capacity tube sock? NBC Chicago : Man Hits CTA Passenger With Feces-Filled Sock http://www.nbcchicago.com/traffic/transit/chicago-transit-cta-passenger-attacked-sock-human-feces-184148911.html

This idiot wore the shirt with the intent to start some confrontation and get attention brought to himself, there's a segment of the population who gets their jollies by starting controversial confrontations. Defending your 1st amendment or 2nd amendment rights is one thing but this guy went out of his way to offend people, not just anti's but as I can read here pro-2nd amendment are offended by his tastless shirt also.

I gotcha now.  Maybe if I built a stepped pyramid space alien landing pad out back, it would be tiny of course due to time constraints, they'd fetch me off this retarded planet.

You can post who it is, I'm sure they'll appreciate the notoriety. A lot of people here are faithfuls to people that run good shops and stay away from those types of shops.

Exactly the attitude that has helped lead to our lost firearm rights so far.   Hope your shotgun and handgun don't hold more than one round each .. that'll come around on the guitar eventually, once they're banned all the things you don't care about. And if your handgun holds more than ten rounds, this time around may affect you.   - OS

The Bushmaster in the car story was released by media and not the police. A reporter saw his shotgun in the car and misidentified which weapon it was. Coroner confirmed that the Bushmaster was used to kill everybody else and that one of the pistols was used on the shooter himself.   The major point missed here, by posters to these forums and the media, was that the major problem here was negligence on the part of the mother. She knew her son had issues and allowed free access to her weapons. She is the first and only person that could have prevented this horrible occurence, simply by properly securing her weapons.   The shooter had been turned down for purchase of a weapon recently. Connecticut had gun control in place. He couldn't purchase a gun in this state. The problem was not an issue of State or Federal laws, it was a very reckless act by a parent. She has already been punished, he shot her first.

I'll not argue mechanical reliability Robert. Clearly the SCAR is designed better in that regard, however, having used all three of the rifles you mentioned in a combat environment, attending over half a dozen intensive shooting courses (much longer than two days) with the AR platform and expending hundreds of thousands of rounds through that same series rifle I believe I can speak intelligently on it. Through all the rounds I've fired from an M4/AR platform, I have never once had a malfunction that wasn't due to magazine, ammo or boot breakage. It is an incredibly dependable rifle. It just requires lube, which is a difficult concept for some (too much/too little), and that is operator head space and timing. I've stressed tested my service rifle putting at least 3,000 rounds over a two day period through it without issue. I don't believe that anyone here can carry that much ammo or will ever encounter a scenario where that much ammo must be fired in a life/death situation. Therefore, it leads me to conclude that, although it's mechanical reliability is top notch, there is no advantage for the weekend warrior having a SCAR vs an AR platform, whether in 5.56 or .308, other than cool factor. Not to say that isn't a good enough reason... I got a lotta cool stuff, but I'm not kidding myself into believing that my ARs, SKS, MSAR, AK have any reliability advantage over the other so long as I have access to lube every few thousand rounds.

They would have said he was wearing a pink tutu if they thought it would have given them an extra rating point. 90% of the media's no better than a crooked politician.

No one wants to hear it but...the system worked as it was intended to.   The kid was STOPPED from buying a gun at a gun store earlier in the week. He did not acquire the murder weapons by purchasing them from an unscrupulous dealer , or through a "gun show loop hole" .   He MURDERED someone to get them!    He then broke God knows how many laws and used the rifle to shoot a hole in the glass of the building and gain entry. He then shot the unarmed (by laws intended to keep the children safe) employees and then shot the kids. The laws that kept the employees helpless and unable to defend themselves were simply IGNORED by the little psycho. The "System" worked just as it was intended.   The criminal BY DEFINITION ignores the laws he does not care to follow.    This was not a "failure of the system" it was a criminal deviant showing extreme persistence to bring about a horrific act.    Oh and did I mention that before he launched his attack he destroyed the hard drive to his computer so he would not leave information/evidence behind....wonder exactly what he was hiding?   Maybe communication with someone else? Wonder who?   Not to be all "conspiratorial" but we still really do not know yet whether this was JUST the work of an unstable kid or whether he had help/mentoring from someone else online... THAT is what the authorities should be more concerned with than banning rifles LEGALLY used by MILLIONS of gunowners the overwhelming majority of whom never use them for evil purposes. 

In the words of John Prine, "50 million Elvis Presley fans can't be all wrong."   The Glock is at the top of a lot of lists - durability, simplicity and ease of maintenance.   There are some great guns out there.  There's a reason the Glock is the best selling pistol in America. 

Reliability issues have been addressed. No concerns there. The differences in 3 and 4... 4 with the backstraps, and the texture. Personally, I don't like the 4 texture. In summer, when I only have one shirt on, and the grip would rub against my bare skin... I don't like that sandpapering effect going on. To me, 3 is perfect.

I plan on buying myself a nice NFA short barrel 6.8 LWRC when I get my bonus in July. I hope to be able to buy one at that time but if not I am happy with the rifles I already have. I do not give into the price gouging and panic that many seem to be already encountering. Who knows what this administration has in store for us, I think if it becomes as bad as people are talking about we will be lucky to keep the rifles and magazines that we own, I do not want to invest thousands of dollars to find out later that they could be taken away from me For those of you who think the NRA is a waste of money, you should re consider as they are the strongest allies that we as gun owners will ever have on our side, perhaps use some of the money you are using on inflated priced Magazines and ammo and support them

  Robert,   I don't think they can go door to door to confiscate the firearms.  I don't think drawing a line in the sand is 'manly' or 'patriotic'....  but, I think it's time for gun owners, and 2nd amendment supporters to say in a clear voice, "never again, no more".   I don't subscribe to childhood fantasies, that it's somehow patriotic to die in a blaze of glory, and who wants a civil war to start?     But, I'm not blind either, I believe that a civil war (revolution 3.0 whatever you want to call it) is at the very least a possibility in my life time, if not a probability...  So if this is the straw that breaks that camels back, then so be it.  Probably better this than waiting until a sovereign debt crisis hits.   Let me ask you some questions, and they aren't rhetorical :)   What is it that these folks want?  Do you think they will be happy with more red tape, and never ask for anything else again?  Or will they continue to chip away at this right?  Why do we as gun owners continue to even negotiate with people who have made it clear their end goal is to disarm all law abiding citizens?   Our grandparents and parents pushed this fight onto our shoulders, and that was unfair of them...  They knew the 'progressives' wanted to disarm us, and instead of making a stand they continued to 'appease' our progressive "friends".  We've had to spend the vast majority of our adult lives fighting to take those rights back...   It's not fair of us to continue to push this 'fight' onto the next generation or the generation after that...  We must say in clear terms, NO. We're not going to continue to give an inch, on these stupid feel good laws that violate our God given rights.  That there is no middle ground on this argument, that there will be no compromise, period.   History has taught me what happens when you give up these rights...  I know what is at stake, and I'm willing to draw a line in the sand and say NO.  My hope is that no is enough, because the only place I want to die, is in a warm comfortable bed surrounded by my children and grand children many years from now.  

Brass? What brass? I have no brass. I know nufink! :)

I made the mistake of watching part of his show tonight. He had a few shrinks and "doctors" on his show tonight. I think one of them was an Indian (from India). The ticker was displaying gun death statistics while they systematically spoke about how dangerous AR-15's are and how they do not belong in the hands of American citizens. He also made sure to have the room full of liberals that constantly shook their heads in fake disbelief when the Piss Ant stated a "gun fact". Of course, he had a couple pro-gun people sitting off in their little corner of the room so he could create a side show out of them. One guy wrote a book about semi-auto guns (can't remember the title). The pro-gun folks were extremely respectful and when they tried to make their arguments Piers started his usual crap. Yelling and over-riding them every time they made a point. When he said to Piers that all semi-auto's are the same and that an AR is no different, Piers yelled at him repeatedly and kept asking him how many rounds an AR could shoot per second. The guy didn't even get a chance to answer the first question before the Piss Ant was yelling at him. Piers is now claiming that an AR can shoot 4 to 6 rounds per second, which is total bull shit. My finger can't pull the trigger that fast. Piers is obviously citing the specs from a military M16 version and applying them to AR's. My advice is that these pro-gun people stop taking interviews with Piers. All he is going to do is yell at them and call them "stupid" when they disagree. I really do hate that man. He has been here 6 years and is already advocating stripping our rights away. He isn't worth the dog shit on the bottom of my shoe.

Hi Norma. Good to have you here.

  I wouldn't, because I know that the nutjobs and criminals wouldn't give theirs up.

Obviously the woman is deranged.  It's "Assault Clips"!

Just got the email myself,I too am done with them if nothing else for the insane price gouging that they tried to pull and are still doing to an extent.

Yeager's response to CTD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWR2Y_NBsOQ   I know many don't like him but he makes a point that gun people turning on gun people is a betrayal and that practices like what CTD is doing, not only in their cessation of firearms sales, but their hyperinflation of items like PMags, is criminal. Boycott with your wallet.   I'm equally upset over people on ar15.com doing the same thing. People jacking up the prices of BCG's, PMag's, etc., to take advantage of one another. This is not about investment or about smart purchasing, but its about taking advantage of people, which is a travesty.

Ok, new idea: instead of banning anything, changing anything,  or trying to otherwise modify the 4473, I have come up with a new concept. Let us teach our children and all those around us the value of human life.  Rule #1: All life is precious and can never be replaced. Rule #2: See rule 1

Wanna get 2/3rds of the nation screaming, start passing more strict legislation on a very popular product that can be "argued" has caused or aided in 100,000's+ deaths in many ways, probably over 1 million in the last century. Much more so than than the anti's can argue about firearms or really any other legal product. ALCOHOL. Costas argued that if the football player who killed his girlfriend hadn't had a "gun", they would still be alive thinking a big male football player couldn't kill a petite girl without one when a much more logical argument might be that if the football player hadn't been raging drunk on alcohol he would have had more control of his emotions and may not have killed his girlfriend. How many domestic violence incidents start because of someone being under the influence of alcohol? Also, let's not forget our favorite restaurant owner gun hater Ray Whatshisname. How many drunks did he allow to leave his bar restaurant, get in their car and drive home endangering kids with their familys on the same highway? IMO, that's a whole hell of alot more dangerous than allowing a law abiding citizen to carry their handgun into his restaurant. Anyway, I'm not advocating a background check at every Mapco or liqor store before you can buy an alcoholic product to see if you have been arrested in the past for DUI or domestic violence, or a one bottle per month limit or a size limit on the bottle, i'm just saying there is legal products that can be "argued" is much more of a problem in causing tragic deaths of innocents than firearms. Just tell a liberal you want to take away his booze because someone else might abuse it and go on a pi$$ed at the world raging drunk and might stab or beat someone to death, or run a school bus off the road killing children. I mean, they don't "NEED" alochol do they? I wonder if they will argue back that just because someone does a bad thing under the influence of alcohol, they shouldn't be demonized or punished for it. P.S. Sorry for the long rant.

Toaster circa 1950's vs. 2012 They do the same thing. One just has more buttons and looks "scary".

The NRA should not waiver a single inch. Everyone here knows that if you give the anti-gun Lib's an inch they will try to take a mile. If anything, the NRA should make an effort to expand gun rights and gun ownership after this. Criminals like unarmed victims. That sick bastard killed 20 little kids. If those teachers had been armed he would be dead and those kids would be enjoying Christmas with their families.

thanks for the likes  :woohoo:    feel free to add to it.     Quotes from pages of a 1912 Third National Bank book; It is not what you earn, but what you save that makes you independent.   The secret of success is not so much in knowing how to make money as in the ability to hang on to it. ​ The substantial wealth of rich people of the world came through their habits of saving.   Habitual savers can never be poor. In seasons of prosperity provide for seasons of want.   A good bank account is exceedingly comforting in times of need.   Do not hesitate to lay aside a reasonable portion of your income.   Where one man gets rich through hazardous speculation, a hundred get poor.   Where one mans stays poor, through the slow methods of saving, a hundred get rich.   The wise earner makes a present sacrifice for future comfort.   Shape your affairs so that you can deposit at least a small sum every week.   Deny yourself present luxuries that you may have them in plenty later on.   Lean not upon others. Rely upon your own strength.   Earn your own dollars. Save and deposit as many of these dollars as you can.   Educate your children to save by setting a good example.       .

Sheeple will be sheeple. I refuse to bow to their weakness.

[quote name='HvyMtl' timestamp='1354549708' post='854235'] Fox "News" is the only "news" outlet to sue in court, and win the right to lie to their viewers. Do you have another source confirming this story? Sorry, posting Fox is like posting MSNBC. Neither of them are out for the news, both are out for what sells to their target audience. [url="http://www.philly2philly.com/politics_community/politics_community_articles/2009/6/29/4854/fox_news_wins_lawsuit_misinform_public"]http://www.philly2ph...isinform_public[/url] [url="http://www.relfe.com/media_can_legally_lie.html"]http://www.relfe.com...egally_lie.html[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre[/url] [/quote]You mean lie like CNN and other outlets have done for many years?