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Since the debate continues I will ask what I asked in the first epic thread and got nothing but politician responses.   What would YOU DO as a licensed and permitted handgun carrier if someone was on top of you slamming the back of your head into the pavement?   The events leading up to your potential death or permanent disability are really irrelevent.  At the point Zimmerman fired the shot heard round the country he was in such a postition and the events leading up to that do not justify his "taking an ass-whoopping".

For some reason, the BSA is convinced I'm an Eagle Scout (I wasn't but they think I am) and I was surveyed on this issue a few months ago as I'm sure many here were.   Frankly, I don't have a problem with "gay" boys being allowed in scouts...they were already there anyway.  Improper sexual behavior is improper sexual behavior regardless of what sex or sexes are involved and sexual "anything" really has no place in scouts in any event.   Gay boys can benefit from learning how to pitch a tent, use a compass, build a camp fire and tie a knot just like any straight boy can.   I think some here are turning this into a "sexual" issue and it simply isn't...not allowing gay boys into scouts simply because they are gay makes about as much sense as not allowing children with red hair into scouts because they have red hair. Many seem to always want to make the leap from "being gay" to "having gay sex" one is simply not interchangeable with the other.

In just 1 1/2 minutes, Nora Craig tells elected officials in New Jersey just what their job is supposed to be. Classic!!   http://www.therightscoop.com/fantastic-new-jersey-woman-delivers-a-lesson-on-the-2nd-amendment/  

I don't think anyone is surprised by this new evidence. Seemed pretty clear TM was a thug from the get-go, not an innocent kid. GZ is no saint, either, but I don't believe what he did wrong warranted him dying, which is what would have happened if TM kept bashing his head against that sidewalk.

I can't help but wonder...for those of you who are having a problem with this and think that "allowing" homosexuals to be in the BSA is somehow changing or compromising "morals", do you let homosexuals into your church or do you forbid them from entering there too?  Do you let them in but make them sit in a special section so they can't spread homosexuality?   Are homosexuals unable to believe in a "god"?   Really, folks...if you want to exclude people who have or may have, in your opinion, immoral proclivities then you might as well close the damn doors to your church because not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU would qualify to go inside.

Went over to a friend of my mothers house today to help her out with some home maintenance that was overdue. While talking to her she mentioned that she had a .22 rifle she wanted to show me. I was expecting a plinker .22. She brought out a beautiful German made falling block target rifle. Detachable diopter rear sight, front palm rest, gorgeous checkering, and a trigger that can only weigh ounces. She ended up giving it to me as she hasn't shot it in almost twenty years. It is an incredibly well made rifle and an unbelievable gift. She said her father brought it back from Germany after WW2. From what I can tell from an Internet search it was made in the 1920s. Haenel K.K. Sport, .22LR http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Haenel_Target_Rifle.htm Mike

The round that grazed his head actually sent skull fragments into his brain. They found the suspect and he was killed in a fire fight with officers.

So, there's really way too much to cover on this topic, but I'll try to touch on what I've seen, both as a boy who went through scouting and now as a Scoutmaster, and based on reactions from parents and other adults in my district how it will affect scouting locally.   1. Homosexuality in scouting.     a. It already happens, and those troops that are willing to accept it and have a charter organization that will accept it, do. Those organizations that will not, do not. This applies from the top down, adults through youth membership.     b. Predatory behavior can occur at ANY age. From same age youth/adults, older/younger youth, and adults/youth.     c. Youth Protection should be enforced on ALL fronts. Be it bullying, sexual advances/abuse, harassment, or physical abuse.   2. Scouting as a Religious organization     a. This is up to each individual troop's Charter Organization     b. Each charter organization "owns" the troop that it charters. Yes, it is the "boys' troop", however the organization sets the rules under which it may operate.     c. This national decision attempts to force individual organizations to accept membership of individuals who do not subscribe to the same faith of the aforementioned charter org.   To quote Hershemeister, who quotes from the BSA's own website: Here we find that yes, the BSA does proclaim any specific faith.   However   It is overlooked that "Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life." This statement allows for a Charter Organization to set the rules for how a troop will operate with regard to religion.   Indeed, a troop that is chartered with an American Legion post or Rotary Club will be run and have potentially differing faith principles than one that is chartered by a Baptist or Methodist church. Even those that meet at one church will have different religious principles than another that may even be of the same denomination or basic faith.   3. So, what about this new policy?      a. Face value: scouting as a whole now accepts openly gay youth.              i. There will be an eventual push for openly gay adult leaders. Boys who age out at 18 will want to stay involved.             ii. Is there some magic change from 17 years 11 months and 29 days to 18 years that really changes a person that much?            iii. Why is a gay leader not ok, but a boy who is almost there and is serving in youth leadership roles in his troop ok?      b. Individual troops should be able to restrict membership according to their charter organizations rules and beliefs.              i. The current wording of the new policy doesn't state this.             ii. I suspect we'll get this confirmation later. We'll see.      c. A lot of troops in my local district will either disband or continue restricting membership, and these same troops will likely choose to not participate in activities with troops that allow any boy.      d. Overall membership in my local district will decline or appear to decline as troops stop participating in events with other troops/ disband.   What does this mean for me? No idea. Will I stay in scouting? Can't tell at the moment, but I'll probably stay. Too much good to be done.  What is my Charter Org doing? We haven't met yet.   That's really all I've been able to muster with regard to this policy. I don't know anything about corporate or individual donations affecting the top level. I don't know polling statistics. I'm not here to talk right or wrong, or to slam one faith or another based on how they choose to discriminate.   I can say it's been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'll get back to my seat now and keep reading.   EDIT: fixed a sentence fragment.

too funny.    I did scouts with my oldest grandson for two years.  I don't know that any of the scouts were gay, boy scouts or cubs, and I doubt any of the leaders were.  But there were several ( imho) weirdo's involved in it all.  I just chalked up up to people being what they are and not worrying much about it.  Live and let live, yanno.   I did it for my grandson to be involved, met some very nice people.  I never let my true feeling known about anything really.  But them trying to force me to be a churchgoer really ate at me.  I was asked multiple times what church I attended and whenever I actually admitted to not going to church I was told every time that it was okay as long as I had a personal relationship with God.  I just smiled and nodded.  I was there to help my grandson and help the other kids in his den and pack so I ignored all the church stuff.   One incident about did me in though.  The entire pack met inside of the church that sponsored his pack to learn about the popcorn sales process.   They actually stood at the altar and pushed popcorn sales.  I sat in a pew listening attentively.  Happened to be wearing a ball cap.  One of the the boy scout adult leader actually came up to me and told me " take that hat off and show some respect while you are in a church" I was dumbfounded.  It was all I could do to not ask the guy if he ever heard the story of Jesus and the money changers.   I was pissed but just nodded and removed my hat.  What a bunch of hypocrite's.  Use the church as a church and I assure you I would have not worn a hat, but to peddle popcorn it did not seem like much of a church at the moment.   Anyway...   Homosexuals are not pedophiles.  It is damn ignorant to say that they are.   Are gay boy scouts as likely to rape non gay scouts as a hetero scout is likely to rape a girl?  Hell NO!   Neither is a very likely scenario.  Sex has no place in scouting,  it is about teaching boys to become upstanding citizens.   I could care less if a scout or a leader is gay anymore than I care of they are heterosexual,  none of that matters.   My grandson was a productive scout, we participated in most events and he earned a wide assortment of badges and awards.  We did camp outs hikes, outings, den and pack meetings.  He lost interest after his second year and never asked to go back for a third so I let it go.  He does football.      Oddly enough, I was a card carrying scout leader for those two years,  and when we did not come back after football season for a third year I was not contacted one time by anyone in his pack to ask where we were.   I am pretty much glad they didn't now. 

I'm a cub scout leader for my son's pack. If I ever heard any of my boys talking about sex AT ALL I'd be having a chat with their parents. It's got no business in the pack.

Gay, straight... I don't see how sexual orientation one way or the other should be a topic of discussion during scouting activities. It's inappropriate. I was a scout until I was 10 or 11. We knew who the queer kids were, just like in school. I don't see how it affected anything other than them being made fun of for being girly. Maybe that will change. Other than that, anyone bringing up sexual orientations (hetero or otherwise) should not be doing so during scouting activities, so what's the problem?

How about this - we just stop celebrating everyone's sexual proclivities. As long as the adults aren't molesting the kids lets just stop talking about it so much. Whatever happened to basic decency wen people wouldn't dare talk about their sexual relations in public? Jeez

Maybe Zimmerman WAS being a busy-body and shouldn't have gotten involved. Maybe he shouldn't have followed Martin to see where he went. Maybe he shouldn't have confronted him and/or asked him what he was up to. BUT, none of that is illegal, none of that warrants being physically assaulted, and none of that justifies a murder charge. In far too many cases, by the time the cops show up to a non-emergency call like this started out as the bad guy is long gone. All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. Well Zimmerman may not be an angel, but I think he was doing the right thing by keeping a suspicious looking person in sight so he could report back to the cops.

some how I absolutely believe Jesus would say gay kids should be scouts the same as straight kids.   No where in any cub scout literature is it mentioned you gotta believe in a certain God.  no where in the scout pack I was involved with did it say you gotta be a Methodist.    And it amazes me that a church would not accept a sinner into their flock.  What a f'd up deal that is.  No wonder I have ZERO interest in organized religion.  Organized religion does not want me because I am a sinner too.

your correct......and if Martin had gone on to the house he was staying at rather than jump Zimmermann, we wouldn't be talking it either. many times a person changes their mind about the road to take home and their life is forever changed.

Martin physically assaulted Zimmerman.    Zimmerman is on trial for stopping that assault.

In high school there were probably many compromising photos taken from me. Kids smoke pot and drink. It doesn't prove anything in regard to what happened; it's just an attempt at character assassination. If they bring that into court they need to bring Zimmerman's previous run-ins with the law as well. It baffles me that folks will scream about how Z was never convicted of assaulting a police officer although he was charged, yet are all about focusing on Martin's behavior for which HE never charged. How does that make sense?

Zimmerman was NOT a robust muscle-bound 250 pounder. He was a short doughy, out of shape fat guy. Even at 6'3" and only 140 pounds, I bet your average 17 yr old kid is lean, quick, and strong enough to whoop the crap out him. If I saw them squared up against one another in a street fight my money would be on TM, for sure. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI[/media]

I know we all like to complain about cops every now and then but this video reminds us about the dangers they face every day.     The office was making a traffic stop and took two rounds to the chest(vest) and one round grazed his forehead.   To all of our TGO officers, stay safe and be careful out there.   http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e99_1369261411  

Yall really think this is new to any organisations in the USA? You think gays just now are gay and want to join clubs?   They all have gays in it.. and  they are everywhere.. oh no .. the horror..!!!   Seriously.. its nothing new.. and you all get bend out of shape because now its official......   Silly.. just silly...

  All people are welcome in the church but not all are welcome to join. Joining means you agree with and adhere to certain principles and moral stadards, otherwise you simply have a social group that has no point. Church is not about being perfect. It is however, about working towards that objective.   While homosexuals are free to worship and attend anywhere they may choose, they are not free to change fundamental beliefs or principals. It would be like a Muslim attending a Southern Baptist Church and then demanding they change their beliefs because they are offensive to him. Can't happen? It already is.   This whole thing about gays in the Boy Scouts has nothing to do with the boys who are members who may or may not be gay. IIRC sexuality is not a part of the BSA curriculum. It has to do with mandating that the organization allow leadership that contradicts its own principals and beliefs in order to fundamentally change core beliefs.   If there is that much demand for gay scouts then by all means start a gay scout group but quite trying to mandate that the BSA equivocate for a few.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Thank you Robert, you have summed this matter up quite well IMO. It's somewhat surprising how many people find homosexuals to be completely immoral and untrustworthy yet at the same time would deny gay boys the opertunity to join an organization centered around building morals and trustworthiness. I don't get it.

I'm reminded of an old adage about "if you ever find the perfect church, don't become a member. You will only ruin it."

Sorry you had all this bad luck with Chrysler. I bought my 1998 durango in 1999 from the local chevy dealer in Tullahoma, same owner of the dodge dealership in town as well. Didn't have a problem  then and still when i just go to look at new cars at the same dealerships, I don't have a problem either. Any dealership that wants your business will go out of their way to help you if they really want your business.   Before all this though, I remember hearing about some older gentleman driving up to the chevy dealership in a beat up old pickup truck. Nobody gave him the time of day nor paid attention to him. He left. wait 2 hours later, The dealership getsa phone call from the chevy dealership in an adjacent town telling them they missed out on a corvette sale. It was the same older gentleman, traded his old truck and enough cash in change inthe bed of the truck to pay for a brand new corvette.   Things changed after that.

Scout Oath On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.   Scout Law A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent

There shouldn't have to be an internal vote on whether to allow gays. I wasn't asked to make a statement of heterosexuality as part of the gruelling onboarding questionnaire. I'm pretty sure if there was a merit badge for dating girls, I'd have tried to earn one. I don't even recall a "who digs chicks the most" contest at the Winter Camporee. We played basketball, built campfires, walked around in the woods hunting snipe, and other cool stuff. Ocassionally somebody might call somebody else a fag if they couldn't climb down out of a tree on their own. Otherwise, nobody's sexuality was ever called into question. In fact, it would be pretty inappropriate to discuss it all.

  How dare they demand to be treated like normal people?  The nerve of some people!

Agreed. When a Christian organization for children is allowed to be "bullied" into compromising their religious faith to accommodate people who do not share their basic tenants, values or beliefs, essentially corrupting the organization's premise for existing in the first place, this nation as we once knew it is doomed, doooooooooomed I tellzya! I am not kidding btw, very serious subject, I just like typing "doomed, dooooooooomed I tellzya!" Because it makes me look cool kind of like Fonzi, only without the painful herpies or the gay leather jacket... wait ... what? To be fair, 61% of voting members of the BSoA voted in favor off this. They weren't exactly bullied. They could have just as easily voted against it, just like they did with allowing openly gay leaders.

It can't be racism on the part of the dealership you know...just watch any cable news outlet and you'll here Sharpton and Jackson and their ilk proclaiming that only white people can be racists

I have never been a big 1911 guy, but I fell in love with this thing the moment I saw it. It hung around at my local gun shop for a few months, and I was at the store again.........and I could not take it any longer. Home we went! Now I just need to take her out to the range. Nighthawk Predator II in "sniper gray." [url=http://s199.photobucket.com/user/tnresdog/media/IMG_0353.jpg.html][/URL]

Bass Pro.  $25 a pound all four grades and Remington caps. 7.95 a hundred

the greatest problem I see with people leaving California  is the danger of them infecting other states with their liberal ideals. they created that sorry mess with their liberal mind set and we see now even they cant live with it. for my part we should fence them in and wait for the state to break loose and fall into the ocean.

This is what I suspected.  Thanks everyone for the confirmation.  Of course I will report the sales tax.  Just like I do on Amazon.  :-\

I think Zimmerman is innocent and have thought so pretty much from the beginning, mostly because before all the political/racial shit started the DA had declined to prosecute (I really, really doubt a prosecutor would not prosecute if he thought he had this serious of a winnable case) and especially after the un-doctored tapes and witness statements started to come out.   I think these pictures and text messages just shows "sweet little Travon" for exactly what he is, a want-a-be badass/gansta with not a lot going on upstairs and a big chip on his shoulder.

Saying you are preparing for zombies is a nice way of saying that you are preparing for mass civil unrest. You are preparing to defend yourself, family, friends, and home from the hoards of unprepared people in the event of a SHTF situation. People who will be hungry, mad, and willing to do what ever to take your survival supplies. That is what the whole zombie thing is. A way to be politically correct about something you hope you never have to do.

I'm glad the judge put a gag order on the defense. How can anyone get a fair trial? They have been digging in the trash since day one and painting Zman as the victim. This is going to be a interesting trial!    Dave S

Anything outside of Nashville and Memphis is about the same in TN lol

I LOVE how some people try to make you feel guilty and that there's something wrong with you if you don't fully accept homosexuals trying to normalize their behavior.   What's next? Churches losing their tax exempt status because they don't adopt a "non-discrimination" policy that is completely antithetical to their belief system?   Why are we being forced to change what we believe? How does forced acceptance have any element whatsoever of "fairness"?

The two piles of rifles were probably left as payment to you for your troubles. 

Fighting Pistol (Yeager taught) Fighting Rifle (Yeager taught) Fighting Shotgun AK Armorer Pistol- Low Light (Yeager taught)   Some more than once...   All were excellent. Don't worry about your physical condition...they don't do ninja rolls. James Yeager...can he rub some people the wrong way?  Absolutely.  However, he's one of the most talented firearms instructors I've seen (and I've attended Rogers, Vickers, Suarez, Givens, Pincus, Werner, plus military, LE, and lesser knowns) and, he's not at all abusive in class.  Once you get to know him, he'll do anything for you (in the past, I owned/ran my own training school for 3 years here in MidTN and he was nothing but supportive). Some people can't get past his history and attitude.  That's cool.  But, if you can, you'll receive your money's worth.

  But of course.  After all, it all started when they legalized homosexuality for priests.  :whistle:

very nice........ Karma is a wounderful thing

    To echo Hershmeister's post, neither the BSA nor its parent org purport to be  Christians organizations, so using the Bible would seem to have limited relevancy to the specific issue? And technically, even those prohibitions are not against "being" gay, but rather against the sexual practice involved therein.   Meaning, to me it seems absurd to think that people "choose" to be gay. The  simple fact that I as a heterosexual can not and never could "choose" what gives me a boner seems rather an obvious proof of that premise. But as far as the ruling, it is not advocating gay sex during scout activities, any more than in endorses heterosexual sex during them. Only the stance that "being" gay is not a disqualification for membership.   Anyway, regarding the Christianity makeup, worldwide, the World Organization of the Scout Movement (WOSM),  by which the BSA was founded and of which is a member, probably has as many if not more non-Christian members as Christian.   Indeed, just India and Thailand together have more Scouts than in all the US, and there ain't much of a Christian percentage in either place.   - OS

That's sad , because they are not. This discussion is about letting the gay men or boys join , I'm assuming that means they are " out of the closet ". As I posted earlier , I DO NOT APPROVE.

How will those gays ever control themselves around a bunch of sweaty guys in those handsome uniforms?

We used hose clamps in the Army before all the whiz bang stuff was common place.

heh... I've got a good one...   About 10 yrs ago, I was home alone (don't remember where my wife was) and had just started cleaning my SKS on the coffee table when the door bell rang. Just for laughs, I answered the door with the rifle in hand (the bolt was sitting on the coffee table). The 19 yr old kid's eye got kinda big, but he took a deep breath and launched into his pitch. The fact that the came in anyway impressed me, so I let him go. I continued cleaning the rifle while he talked. At every opportunity I'd clack, snap, or pop pieces together quite loudly just to watch him flinch. I had to try hard to keep a straight face. He started sweating.   :)   He went through the whole demo of comparing the Kirby to my current vacuum and extolled the virtues of the Kirby. Being the nerdy engineer type, I counter-pointed nearly every feature he said was better and challenged him to explain why it was better. He struggled a bit but didn't quit. He conceded a few things that I convinced him weren't actually any better, simply more (and unnecessarily) complicated. When he didn't have an answer, he said he would find out and let me know. Somewhere in there I got finished with the rifle and put it away.   As with everyone else, these sale presentations are exceedingly long and it was dinner time so I started fixing dinner for myself. I offer him something but he refused and continued with this pitch while I cooked. His boss came back by the house about the time I sat down to eat. She was pretty cute and I figured this is where she swoops in for the kill.   :dirty:   I told her that the kid was an excellent salesman and had performed admirably in the face of some pretty difficult questions. So while I'm eating my supper, time to talk brass tax comes. She dropped the $2100 bomb on me and I nearly choked.   :stunned:   $2100?!?! For a vacuum? Are you freakin' insane?    :eek:  Do you come with it and vacuum the house for me or something? My current vacuum cost me $100, do you know how much ammo I could buy with the other $2000?    We go back and forth for a while and the price eventually drops down to $700, which is still WAY more than I'd dream of spending on a vacuum. It had been over 2 hrs at this point and I decided I'd had enough fun for one night. So I looked the lady right in the eye and said (and I'm particularly proud of thinking this one up on the spot)....   "Ma'am, here's the deal. If I'm gonna spend that much money on something that sucks, it's damn sure gonna suck more than my carpet."   :wave:   The kid nearly exploded trying not to laugh. Again, I had a hard time keeping a straight face. She quickly and calmly packed up the vacuum and left. I still laugh thinking about it.   :rofl:     But there's more to the story... I told this story to some co-workers a day or two later. When I got to the $700 part, one of them says "Aw f_ck." Seems he paid $900 for his but should've held out a little longer.  

I tell you. if I still lived there, I'd be thinking very, very hard about the phrase; "Doing what's right ain't always legal & doing what's legal ain't always right" And then I'd spend a few years 'at Her Majesty's pleasure' Unfortunately, with the dissolving of Europe into one giant, conglomerate country, Islam has been given a lot more freedom to spread. Political Correctness is so pervasive to European culture that everyone is terrified of offending or upsetting anyone. Please don't let this happen here! I moved myself & my Wife here to escape the repressive nature of the 'Euro-culture' Don't let this Great Nation fall into the same traps that England has found itself in.

I dunno, but I was told if I put one in the garage, to put it up on wood to keep it off the concrete. Apparently the concrete will conduct moisture onto the metal base of the safe.