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No, I'm not LE. No I'm not a lawyer. No, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.   I do however know there's a difference between what the law says and what it doesn't say. LEOs are exactly that: "law enforcement officers." If it's not in the law, they don't get to make it up to make their jobs easier. Yes, I think the wording of many of these laws make it harder than it needs to be, but that's the job.   I suppose i could take the same tact and say I'm turning blue from explaining again that in Ohio, the default stance is that it is in fact legal to open carry. Mr. Call doesn't have to prove anything, under Ohio law. Unless some other factors are in play to give the LEO reasonable suspicion that a crime was, is, or will be commited, being armed openly in and of itself in Ohio is not enough.   If a call + legal activity = reasonable suspicion, then we're all screwed. Otherwise someone can call 911 and say "monkeylizard is walking on a sidewalk. Don't you think you ought to do something about that?!?!?!?"  Carrying openly or walking on a sidewalk are exactly the same in the eyes of Ohio state law. Some other factor needs to come into play to create reasonable suspicion of a criminal act by Mr. Carr. I can understand Chief Reiss' opinion that being armed in a convenience store at an early morning hour creates reasonable suspicion. The time and location are those needed additional factors in his mind. I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand it and I can see how a judge might side with him on that. However, given the perspective he displayed in his last quote, I think he'd make up something for "reasonable suspicion" if this happened at 2:00 in the afternoon at Kroger on Aisle 7 when the "suspect" was reading the nutrition label on a box of Wheaties.

Out of the box a Savage is going to be as accurate, maybe a little more depending on the individual rifle, than most Remingtons with factory ammo. If you reload you can easily get them to shoot better than a factory Remington. Savage has a strong reputation for accuracy and there is a reason for it. I have had factory Savage barrels that would shoot sub .4" groups at 100 yards using handloads. Handloading is the key to squeezing the most out of a Savage but even with factory ammunition it will definitely fit the needs of any hunter out there.   Remingtons are good if you don't plan on swapping calibers or barrels but with Savages you can do that as well. If you do swap barrels on a Remington it will cost a lot of gunsmith time to do it. Remington take off barrels rarely headspace correctly and to fix that is lathe time and that costs money.   WIth a Savage you can buy a spare bolt head in another caliber for ~$25. And you can swap the barrel at home in no time. Factory barrels can be had for $125-$200 depending on profile and length. So for ~$150 you can have everything to swap to another caliber with a Savage. With most other rifles you are talking about $300+ to do the same and that is if yours stay within the same rim diameter. If you want to change rim diameters add another $150 if you can get one at all with Remington. Setting headspace on a Savage does not require the use of headspace gauges. It can be done easily without any special tools.   I take my Savage to a gunsmith the first time I loosen the barrel nut because they are on the TIGHT. They generally charge next to nothing to break the barrel nut loose. After that everything else can be done at home with hand tools. The barrel nut doesn't need to be tightened by some gorilla on steroids either. All it needs is to be snug. I set my headspace, tighten the barrel nut to lock it in place. Then I used to use a hammer and punch to turn the nut to lock it in place. I normally give it one whack and call it good. I have yet to have a barrel come loose. I recently picked up a dedicated wrench and it makes life a little easier with certain barrel nuts.   Aftermarket support for Savage is as good as any other maker now. You can buy quality aftermarket stocks, aftermarket triggers, mounts and even drop in match quality barrels for Savage. The cost for a drop in match barrel for a Savage is less than having a barrel fitted to other brands in most cases.   In the end if changing calibers is not in your future any rifle will work, including a Savage.   Personally I would look on the used gun market for a Savage with a round back receiver. These are newer actions and they tend to be more square from what I have been told by several big name builders. You can generally find a used Savage for around $250-$300. If you are lucky you can find on in the caliber you want. And if you decide you want to upgrade the barrel there are drop in match barrels avalable for under $300. Shilen, McGowen, PacNor, ER Shaw as well as a few others I cannot remember all make drop in barrels for a Savage.   There is no reason not to own a Savage. Savage. Is a privately owned company with guns made here in the US. Remington, on the other hand, is not a privately owned company. It is owned by Freedom Group which is in turn owned by Cerebus and they are involved in more than just firearms. They also had some of their US companies start selling Chinese guns.   The only downside to owning a Savage, if there is one, is the Remington guys tend to give Savage owners grief.

Really? I saw a few people turn and face the gentleman as he was escorted out. I took it as an ovation for him...but then again I'm wildly biased.

I'll have to drop by sometime and let you show me how you reload .22.

. . . and people laugh when I tell them I lube my guns with bacon grease.  Tsk.   :shake:

Id like to have a box just cause. Set it next to the Zombie Max ammo for contingency purposes.

From reading the article Dave S posted I also see that they conducted a search of his vehicle.  I am curious as to others thoughts on this.  I myself am still trying to make up my mind on legality of the vehicle search.  Arizona v Gant pretty much sets the rules for a vehicle search incident to arrest.     The Supreme Court held that police may search the passenger compartment of a vehicle, incident to a recent occupant's arrest (and therefore without a warrant) only if it is reasonable to believe that the arrestee might access the vehicle at the time of the search, or that the vehicle contains evidence of the offense of arrest.   He obviously did not have access at the time of the search and since his arrest was for obstruction of justice i'm not sure what evidence of the offense the officers could reasonably expect to be in the vehicle.  According to the police the search was to determine if he was under any disability (basically a prohibited person) so they have already basically said the search of the vehicle was to look for evidence of an offense that the suspect was not arrested for.    My thoughts is that this is a violation of his rights and does not meet the requirements set forth in gant for a search incident to arrest.  There was no danger to the public and no risk of evidence being destroyed so in my opinion no exigent circumstances that would allow a warrantless search of his vehicle.   Separate of this im not sure you can really call it a lie if you ask if he has ID with him and he says no when the ID is in his car 50 feet away.  It becomes subjective on what you view as with you.  For example (this is a bit of a stretch for many)  you go into a properly posted business(Stretch 1) and leave your gun in the car(stretch 2).  you are approximately 50 feet away from your vehicle.  Do you have your gun with you?

I still don't like him

  No, Ohio law says you don't have to give your name except when in public and there is reasonable suspicion you have/are/will be commiting a crime. I ask again, where is the reasonable suspicion for this case, in your opinion?   Going by the logic you laid out, it would be OK to force anyone within X yards of a school to provide their ID. A LEO doesn't know all of the people within X yards of said school, and doesn't know they aren't sex offenders and not allowed to be there. Or why not stop every couple and demand ID? One person may have an OP or RO against the other that's being violated.

I just got off the phone with Cabela's to find out what they were doing about all this. They were very polite, as was I, and explained what others have already said happened. I just wanted an explanation about why some were getting different emails. She said:   The earliest customers who got the 5/24 delivery confirmation email also got the earliest backorder emails (yesterday afternoon). The last orders got a 6/30 confirmation email as they should.  The people in between got 5/25 delivery confirmation emails and may or may not have gotten their backorder emails yet.   That makes me feel alot better knowing for sure they are filling the orders in the order they were placed. I know life ain't always fair, but when it is...it's a good thing.       You are absolutely right. I will be happy just KNOWING I'll get my ammo next time they have it in stock and at a price I was willing to pay.

From DaveS' linked article:         I maintain that Ohio law says Mr. Call did not have to provide his information unless the LEO had reasonable belief that a crime was, is, or is about to be commited or one was witnessed by the questionee. The question then is does the legal act of openly carrying a firearm, under the circumstances of this call (time and location) warrant a reasonable suspicion that a crime is/was/going to be commited? Chief Reiss (as did the LEO on site) seems to think so. I disagree, but can understand it. This would seem to be the sticky point that I suppose we'll get cleared up by a judge.         First, there's no reason for Chief Reiss to not-so-subtly insult Mr. Call by suggesting he is irresponsible, especially with pending litigation.   Second, his final thought recorded in the article bothers me. It smacks of "do what I tell you or we're going for a ride." It could be argued that a responsible person is one who is knowledgabe of their rights, knows their Constitutional, federal, and state laws, and won't roll over for anyone trying to take that from them. That a responsible person is one who recognizes that a lot of good men and women have died to establish and maintain those rights and that being coerced into giving those up to make things easier on themselves is wrong.   To be clear, this was not a run-in with the Gestapo as some people would seem to think it is. However, the attitude expressed by Chief Reiss in his last paragraph, when it becomes pervasive in a law enforcement community, can be seen as a step in that direction. It's a direction I'd like to think that none of want to travel down.   I'm not saying what Mr. Call did was the right choice. This could have played out several different ways and this ended up being one of the worst outcomes for all parties short of someone getting shot. Mr. Call was being a first rate asshat. But I believe that it's his right to be a first rate asshat in this case. I guess we'll see what a judge thinks.

    Well boys, I'm mailing my registration (and donations) today. 

Just put some bacon bits in your hollow points and add some wax to hold it in.

Ya need to decide which "laws" (....spiritual and/or man-made...) you are to follow.  In my case, i see it pretty clearly, and civilizations have seen it clearly for pretty much as long as there have been laws.  Simply stated:  "...You have the right to self defense and defense of your family ....".  As to the Commandments; there are plenty of explanations and proscriptions in the old testament (...if you are christian, jew, or curious non believer...) which explain the difference between "killing" and "murder". The bottom line: --"murder" (...killing with malice of forthought...) prohibited.  "Killing" (...accidental...) we'll discuss it.   Two different words; two different definitions; two different concepts.  I wont take the time to look 'em up, but they are there, and the casual student can find them, be he a religious man or not.    I like Gotthegoods post above because im a great Alvin York fan too.  He wuz and continues to be one of my "heroes" (...if an old man can have heroes...); he was an pacifist after his conversion and he sorted the "killing" and "murder" dilemma out very well (...and i think correctly...).  Jesus said to Pilate: --- "My kingdom is not of this world"--- remember the Scriptures state that Jesus is God in the Flesh; and was born to die for the sins of all mankind.  We are not God; we are men made in his image.  There's a big difference.     Christians and Jews who, as the Muslums say, "...are people of the Book...", are to be in the world and not of the world.   That means (...among other things...) that we are to make a difference for good.   Sometimes that means that we have to get a backbone and protect ourselves and others from monstrous people and nuts seeking to killl us and those in our sphere of protection.   Paul said in the New Testament:  "...As far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men....  For me, "...being at peace with all men..." means they are at peace with me (...reasonably--- name calling and hand jestures are ok--- reaching out to thrash me or reaching in the pocket for a pistol or knife, or reaching for a club aint ok...).   The "peace" is broken the instant they move to hurt me or someone in my circle of protection.   That means they are fair game.    I hope and pray that i, in fact, can "...be at peace with all men...".  But ive already made my decision as to what needs to be done should that terrible day come when some thug or monster wont let me be at peace with them.  I firmly believe that everyone who carries a deadly weapon for protection should have this little conversation with himself and work out all the details prior to needing to make the decision in a split second.  There simply aint time for "soul searching" and ethical deliberations when you are facing a monster or mad man.   Thats how i see the Commandment thing.   Your conclusions, mileage, and understanding may vary.   leroy

I stand by my original assertion that this is a distorted market; said distortion created by the threat of government action.  Did the Senate want to go after ammunition?  Not this time, but their attempts at further restriction of firearms further accelerated what had been an already record-paced rate of gun purchases requiring NICS checks.  The rate of gun purchases has been increasing steadily since 2008, then Newtown and the NY SAFE Act lit a fire, and the rate increased even further.  There are more new or semi-new gun owners today in the U.S. than at any point in history, and they all want ammo to feed their new guns.  Demand for ammunition is likely higher than at any point previous - I don't have any data to support that, but I think most would agree that's the case from anecdotal information (and don't bother with "the plural of anecdote is not data" - I know).    Since every manufacturer of ammunition has basically made the same statement about shortages at this point, e.g. "we're running 24/7 7 days a week", our supply is what it is until new facilities come online.  Remington / UMC is building one now in AR which which will start production Q1 2014 (from TTAG).  Until production is able to meet the demand of both the horde of new shooters who would like to actually fire their new weapons, along with those who've been around through a political panic or two and know to keep plenty on hand, the current state of things is our new normal.   One other thing to note is that Russia has loosened restrictions on citizen ownership of .22lr firearms, so the demand for ammunition there has added an additional crunch.  Next time somebody says "I get the 9mm, .40, .45, .223, .308...but .22LR?"  There's a big part of your answer, with a heaping helping of brand new gunnies on the side.  Not all the new gun owners who went through NICS bought ARs or "hi-cap" (Standard Capacity!) semi-autos.  Many of them start out with the loveable little .22LR.   I hate the shortages of ammo and components as much as anyone who still has plenty of ammo (but no components...[sad face]), but if we get through this mess without more legislation, we're going to have literally several million new shooters who may end up pro-gun as a general rule.  I may be guilty of trying to find a silver lining here, but more guns does not only equal less crime - more gunnies potentially equals more people who do not see constitutionally-explicit personal rights as up for negotiation.  It's probably a stretch, but I hope that's the case.  My hope is that Barack Obama ends up being not only the best gun salesman in history, but the man who inadvertently woke up several million Americans who will now defend their rights as free individuals and disavow the nanny state.  Like I said, it's probably a stretch, but once you take on the responsibility for the defense of yourself and family...it has to be a paradigm shift for some folks.

As soon as they started talking about Obamacare, my insurance doubled the next year.  I had to drop a level to afford it,  The following year it when up again,  Last year it went up so much It was out of reason to buy it.  I got lucky my wife went full time and hers was affordable with reasonable coverage.   Obamacare did nothing but scare the insurance companies and give them a reason to raise their rates in my opinion with no benefit at all as far as my family is concerned.

No, with all respect, I think you are missing the point. Open carrying a firearm is NOT a crime in Ohio. The MWAG call in this case, under Ohio law, would be exactly the same as if someone had called in a "man walking down the street in a turtleneck sweater"*. It's not a crime. There is no PC that a crime has been or is going to be commited just because a call was placed.       *the fashion police may disagree.

His actions (regardless of whether you agree with them or not) were not reasonable evidence of wrongdoing. In a state where unlicensed OC is legal, the courts have rules that the open carrying of a gun does not meet the level needed for a Terry Stop and as such, he was under no obligation to identify himself and the detainment by the officers was arguably illegal and a violation of his civil rights.

Can't we just shoot the next 10 people that propose any new laws? :)

Check out Alvin York's wiki page, plenty of scripture quoted which calms my Christian conscience. The Lord occasionally uses real people to combat evil, I pray He will guide me with his righteousness and clarity of thought IF need to use a weapon against another human.

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/dear-democratic-gun-control-lobby-how-to-get-better/     Very interesting article from the perspective a gun owning Democrat. 

    If I am shopping for a holster, I carry a different gun that day and the gun in search of a holster is unloaded when it leaves the house.

Blind, dumb squirrels do occasionally find an acorn.   Don't get excited.

Guess I'll scratch that idea then.Thanks for the info. Thanks Jeff

It makes a difference with fast pistol powders. Then add a Glock with an unsupported chamber and you are asking for some problems.   I push the odds pretty regularly with my wildcating and just testing. I would not try it with jacketed bullets.   Another issue is those .002" might not let the case mouth open enough to release the bullet. The pressure will go the path of least resistence, out the primer hole or at the case head. And even if it does release the bullet it will increase the pressures substantially then the bullet encounters more pressures from the oversized bullet.   What is a safe powder charge? How low is safe enough? No way to know because there is absolutely no load data for shooting .357" bullets in a .355" bore.   Seriously, 9mm bullets are CHEAP. Sell the 357 bullets and buy the correct bullets.   You are flirting with disaster.

Or a Ruger for that matter.

Just got finished up with another build... Just waiting on my magpul stock to get here The cerakote work was done by Aesthetic Finishers in Ohio. They did an awesome job and the turn around was quick! Burnt bronze is a awesome color it really changes in lighting and looks way better in person. The Important Goods: Rainier Zombie Lower Aero Upper Noveske 13.7" Infidel Barrel w/pinned KX3 Flash Hider Troy 15" Alpha Rail WMD Nickel Boron BCG Rainier Raptor CH ALG Trigger ACOG TA11GH With a stock:

Murica

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3npF3e2oZQ

Have not taken the way of the rifle. I've been to two fighting pistols in a year. If I had more vacation time I would take all their classes available. Very much recommend.

OK. Let us recap. 1. Most posters on this topic agreed, at some point, the man did not break any laws. He was well within his legal rights to OC without harassment and he also has a legal right to be a pain in the rear and exercise his right to not cooperate because he did nothing wrong. 2. Most also agreed that the cops were wrong in the way they handled the situation. Those are the two main points at hand here. That being said. We still have opinions (mainly from LE, including my own 20 year retired LE friend I ran this by) that he should have just bent over and kissed boot to make the whole thing go away. Also, it has been said that someone would still have charged him with SOMETHING just for being a pain. Am I the only one that finds this attitude really disheartening? This topic is really bringing my outlook about LE being here for us, on our side, down. I'm done with this one.....too depressing.

Actually Im trying hard to not call individuals out for their shady practices which is why I made that post. Now if someone wants to know if a fellow member is doing the reselling they can look up the posters threads and see what's what. If you read so well go read the TGO rules you can not bash anyones prices out right for all to see and calling someone out here could lead to the same consequences. Just fyi I don't give a rats hairy little #$$ what you think about me, this is an open forum to post your thoughts and have a moderated debate following the rules set forth by the TGO gods. Now if anyone thinks I have violated the rules of TGO or my right to free speech please tell me I will gladly tell you to pi$$ off. I guess that does it for me tonight I'll check back tomorrow to see if this post was edited or deleted. Wait a minute. This post was not about who is buying ammo? It was posted to call Benefactors out (i mean not call them out) for their classified prices? I had no idea.

Ammo is a consumable just like food. Kinda hard to have too much...

What Oh Shoot said.   But for the record, unless I have been mislead, the original Hebrew used the word for "murder" not "kill". The distinction being you can kill a man and you can kill a cow. You can murder a man, but you cannot murder a cow. Even if illegal, immoral etc, killing a cow does not rise to the same level as murdering a man. Therefore, the commandments do not prohibit self-defense.

Nice looking pistol. ;)   - OS

It's also against the law in Ohio for a person wih a suspended license to drive. That doesn't mean the officers can stop a driver who has broken no traffic laws to see their license to see if it was suspended.

Just out of curiousity, wouldn't seeing a man OCing tell police officers that the man was more than likely not a criminal?  I could be really off base, but it seems to me that a criminal or someone who was a threat would be carrying concealed.  Why would they advertise and draw attention to themselves by OCing?  The short answer is they wouldn't.

Who is he? What's his background? Can he legaly have that gun on him? Questions I would want answers to if I was the responding officer. And it has nothing to do with a "Police State". It has everything to do with what is expected of me and what the tax payers pay me to do. Put yourselves in those cops shoes. What would you have done? Dave S Who is he? What is his background? Can he legally have that gun? Without PC that he either has or is committing a crime, that information is all of the citizen's and none of the officer's business.

In my opinion, more lives would be saved by outlawing the use of cell phones while driving than by changing the legal alcohol limit. 

Or maybe that's the proper cooking temp of a zombie t-bone

It is their shop and they can make whatever rules they want. They could even make a rule that anyone entering has to wear a pink tutu. You either comply or do not enter. As long as the rule doesn't violate the law there is nothing anyone can do about it.   Now personally I see it as more dangerous to have people unload their guns before entering. I NEVER remove my gun from the holster unless there is a reason to and unloading is not a reason.

Yes sir you did, i think anyone on the first 2 pages did. The guy at the post office looked at me kind of funny. I wasn't sure if i could get away with using a standard business envelope or if I was going to have to buy the padded ones and pay shipping charges. I walked in with my sample envelope and 2 suture sets and laid in front of the guy and asked if i could send it like that and if so, how many stamps would it take. He told me what i needed and i told him to set me up with enough to send out 22 just like it. He got a puzzled look on his face and said "i can't help it, i gotta ask, do you know a bunch of clumsy folks?" lol I just said yes and left it at that. You should be seeing them in the next day or so.

It's amusing to see the libtard friends I have on FB flipping out over this.   I've been posting "welcome to the party" in reply.

I'll have to give this some thought ... I guess I'll start with melee, my 22 oz Estwing framing hammer is what I would probably grab, not only would it be a serious weapon if needed, I would also already have the main tool required to be able to easily "board up" windows & doors in order to fortify/secure a place. Bonus if I sharpened the shaft (which is fairly long, totally solid, and made from hardened carbon steel) that way if I needed I could use it to "lop off" zombie limbs like a machete in an emergency. For my long-gun I'd definately grab my Mossberg 590A1 it holds 8+1 in the tube w/+4 more 00buck in the speedfeed stock, +25 more 00buck on a belt bandoleer, that is 33 rds of 00buck "immmediately on hand" + a couple ammo cans of a couple hundred more 00 buck & slugs in reserve that I'd toss in a pack. 12 gauge 00 buck is both weighty & bulky, but it's effectiveness in CQC is unquestionable & I'd be looking to put down threats as quickly & as reliably as possible. Sidearm choice would probably be my G17, I have more magazines for it than I do for any other handgun I own (by far) .. plus I own several 33rd magazines for it as well. My main goal would be to get my family to the river, use my small fishing boat to find a larger barge or tug to anchor in the middle of the Mississippi to use as a base of operations, to both search for other survivors & scavange for supplies. Plenty of fresh water to drink (once purified) and plenty of fish to eat (once caught) so that takes care of the three main survival needs, safe shelter, fresh water & food. All of those tugs are required to keep first aid supplies & emergency marine radios on board, and being anchored in the middle of the Mississippi should keep the zombies from swimming out to us, unless there are swimming zombies who are smart enough to start swimming from upstream of the boat and strong enough to swim out to the middle in that current without being swept away. *shrug* sounds good in theory anyway.

Even after praying to The Lord, David picked up the sling and killed the giant Goliath. If the time comes that I have to choose between the life of myself or my family and a person wishing to do harm to us, I can promise you I know my decision. I'll have to see if I can find some scripture after church. ETA: Here's only one I could find while driving Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.' I believe murder is killing unjustly. We are to preserve life.

When I die, if I am secure in my faith and right with my GOD, there is NOTHING no man can say or do that will change where I go. And if some Inman thinks he can change that then he can kiss my white furry butt!

i would be rolling over in my grave if that happend

for folks so upset over the people going in earlt just go before them if you dont want something dont buy it like others have said its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it

Sheep asks Caster: Is that a gun?!? Caster: uhh, yeah... Sheep: Why are you carrying a gun?!? Caster: It's against my religion to fight. Besides, Recoil is much easier to manage than blunt force trauma to my fists and or face. Sheep: ......blank stare Caster: ......sly grin...walks away casually, possibly whistling a Black Sabbath tune.

  I've worked for some folks over the years that I'd like to see wetting themselves in a corner while being pinned down by simmunitions fire.  :D