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Well said, Robert. But I'd like to add one comment to yours. Seems to me that a lot of this "being insulted" is just an excuse to sue and have an "easy paycheck." Crudely put, but I think relevant to your interpretation.

Haha, the same reason hunting should be banned. People could just go to the store where the meat is made instead of killing an innocent animal.

1. I long ago came to the conclusion that what deodorant I decide to use will be some kind of racial insult to someone.   2. Shortly after I came to conclusion "1" I came to the conclusion that I really didn't care.   I came to that conclusions because even earlier than I made decision "1" I made the decision that I wasn't going to waste one moment of my life worrying about things I can't control and one of the things I can't control are stupid, ignorant people who are looking for a reason to be insulted and believe everything is related to "race".

Don't be fooled into thinking that since you've done it once the next time will be easier.

And then the hippies plug their car into a wall which gets its electricity from burning coal.

Ive heard some people just clean the outside of their ruger pistols, lol.

Fact of the matter was she was conscience, she was moving inside the car and not following commands. Under those same circumstances 99 out of 100 officers would respond by taking control of that person and would not wait around for EMS to show up. I have issue with them leaving her on the pavement but I have ZERO issue with how, when and why they removed her from her vehicle.   Lets see. The incident happened in NM, we are in TN so how does Ohio fit into this? Heck, while we are at it lets cite some obscure law on the Chilean law books to prove that these officers are the most awful, heinous people on earth next to Hitler or Obama. After all an old diabetic women cannot possibly be a threat. Imagine, just for a moment, that there are more women carrying firearms today than probably ever before in history. And we have a women who is conscience but acting very erratic and the officers have ZERO clue whether she has a firearm. So the choice is let her continue to act erractically in her car, where she may have a firearm, or remove her from the car where she doesn't. I will choose to remove them from the vehicle every single time.   Also, the vehicle itself is a very powerful weapon and by all accounts she tried to drive off several times. Yes they can take the keys out of the ignition but not before gaining entry and doing so with a car that is attempting to leave the scene is very dangerous but someone like this must be stopped. And even then I can tell you from personal experience that trying to remove the keys from the ignition when the driver doesn't want you to can be very, very difficult. I tried just turning the ignition off but she turned the car back on and would try to drive away. I agian turned the car off and eventually got them out of the ignition but I wound up wearing a lot of that person's blood that day as I fought her to remove the keys from the ignition. She risked my life that day and affected my life for the next 6 months while I got tested because I was exposed to a significant amount of her blood. The entire time she was screaming she couldn't get another DUI.    Robert, why are you condeming those who pose "what ifs" when you are doing the same thing. Yes, you have done it several times in this thread. You made sure to hold people accountable to a rule you, yourself, will not follow. Seems hypocritical that you are allowed to pose what ifs to support your OPINION yet tell everyone else they better not do the same. Someone said what if the car might catch on fire and you shot them down saying we are not playing the "what if" game then you keep talking about a spinal cord injury, which turned out to be another "what if".   Post #71:   And here you are taking an unnecessary pot shot at LE.  

"Police arrived on the scene to calm the victims as the coroner removed the bodies of 4 fatally wounded attackers, who broke into this home to terrorize a family." This ^^^ would have been a much better headline!

When I drive to visit my family in Missouri, I cross through Cairo IL from KY and am actually in CommieVille for a grand total of 45 seconds. On the trip up, I stop in Wickliffe, a mile before the bridge, unload, lock up pistol, box up ammo, and separate them as far as possible. After that dreadful 45 second ride through Cairo, I stop and re-free myself. On the way back, I do the same in reverse order. Its messed up because I almost feel like a bad guy trying to be sneaky to avoid getting busted, when I am one of the good guys. Absolutely disgusting!

Robert, No one is trying to change your mind. If you think the cops need to be fired, so be it; we get that. But you keep making arguments that the video and the woman’s own statements in the news interview do not support.   We get it that you were a volunteer EMT and that you are focused on the medical aspects of the situation. I would expect no less of a Doctor or a Nurse. But cops have different priorities at accident scenes. Highest priority; make the scene safe. As I said before that comes before medical treatment.   Part of making the scene safe in this situation was removing the driver from physical control of the vehicle. The woman was not unconscious; she said herself that she was conscious, but she was so disoriented that she couldn’t figure out how to open the door. The Officer said she was attempting to move the car. As someone else said when you hear hoof beats think horses; not zebras. It is unfortunate that this woman was having a reaction that made her appear drunk; but it is what it is.   I’m sure that if any of those cops thought the woman was injured they would have used due care. I’m guessing that there was nothing to suggest that. Was it necessary to leave her on the pavement? No, that’s why they got her up.   No one is suggesting that these cops get a commendation for their actions or that it could not have been handled better, but calling them idiots and saying they should be fired is not reasonable either. This woman, like all citizens that feel they have been wronged by the cops; has recourse. She can make a formal complaint and she has civil court available to her. I’m guessing it doesn’t go that far.

Posting my response to this incredible d****baggery would likely result in warning points and being on an NSA list.  Since I'm likely already on an NSA list (or two); I'll censor myself for the sake of my warning points. 

2 words: ninja stars

Teufelshunden is more accurate, actually:)   Bis später , ya`all :)

Teufel Hunden.   Some will know.

I'm not exaggerating anything.  If you think you can look at a person and judge whether they have a spinal injury based on your perceived severity of the accident then you are fooling yourself at the victim's expense; anyone who has worked more than a few accident scenes knows just how foolish that is.  As to the degree of force they used ANY force was irresponsible and excessive because it was 100% unnecessary and 100% against even the most basic first aid.   I don't know why you want to dismiss the actions of these cops but their actions were absolutely wrong...absolutely irresponsible...absolutely stupid and there's not a chance in hell you are going to change my mind on this.

  So cops should now just politely monitor people acting irrationally until a medic comes around and not take into consideration anyone's safety?  The woman had already displayed multiple reasons for being considered dangerous.   maybe instead of securing her on the ground they could've just held her at gun point and not moved her... but then we would be talking about how those evil cops pointed a loaded gun at her instead.  bunch of silliness in this argument, I bet once the full video is released this story will die out just like the rest of them do.

  Beginner's first aid doesn't teach you how to tell the difference between someone driving after snorting bath salts or having blood sugar problems.   I am the first to say that cops should be charged with crimes just like any of us, but just as bigk said there is a lot of shit going on there that we don't see; it's just another tape edited by the media to show their message agenda. Anyone who has been in those crappy situations can tell you that it is impossible to process all of the data, impossible no matter how awesome of an analyst they think they are.  It's easy for us to see the video and say officer 1 did this wrong, officer 2 did this wrong, because we don't have all of our senses being flooded with variables from the computer screen, we can easily focus on a few select items.   As you said in the previous post about dragging her out, what happened if the car caught fire and they left her in it?  what happened if she jerked something in gear and ran over a cop? it wouldn't take more than a couple of feet to run over and kill someone... what if the driver had a gun under the seat? she had no idea what was going on so she could've very well got spooked and started shooting.  what if she started squirming around inside the car and cut herself up from shards of metal or glass and started bleeding out?   We can play the what-ifs from a computer screen all day long, that's why i stopped trying to make judgements based on videos that are obviously designed to drum up an emotion of some sort until the underlying story is out.  Perfect example is that idiot in murfreesboro that went through the dui checkpoint, people were screaming how it was terrible until they found out it was planned and he was a student pursuing a degree in media then the whole damn thing just disappeared.

Lingo-wise, "quota" is verboten in LE circles.  "Stats driven" or "Standards" is in.  Metro Nashville and other agencies are 'ate up' with it.   Personally, I think it's just a crutch for lazy LE supervisors. Numbers don't tell the whole story.  I know what my people are doing...regardless of what a Stat Sheet says.   For instance, two different 3rd Shift officers...   #1 stays on the main roads and writes 5 tickets during his shift.  Yay. #2 listened in rollcall, heard about a neighborhood getting crushed with vandalisms and car burglaries, and makes it his mission that night (in between the calls-for-service he has to answer). At the end of the shift, he didn't catch anyone (white car with blue lights and POLICE all over it), but there were ZERO vandalisms and car burglaries that night.  Because of this, #2 didn't write any tickets.   Is #1 officer better than #2 officer?  "Stats Driven" says he is. I say no.

I love those accuracy international stocks... but i just dont think i could justify spending the money on one.

Love it. Love them both. Thatd be worth sleeping in somebody elses basement, after my wife saw the cost lol. Tapatalk ate my spelling.

another reason to bolt your safes down.

From the article at the link:     Well, uh, being that they are in the hands of someone other than the rightful owner or a person who has permission from the rightful owner to possess them then, yes, I'd say they are in the 'wrong hands'.   Almost makes one wonder if keeping many/all of their privately owned firearms in one safe/lockbox/etc. might just be a way of creating 'one stop shopping' for criminals.

Love mine... It's my carry gun. They have a rental at Nashville Armory, and that's what did me in. I was thinking about either XDs or M&P Shield in .40. I rented the XDs and I shot very well with it first magazine... So that did it for me.   I'd suggest you rent one so you can see for yourself.

I still would like to know why it was necessary to yank the woman from the car, prone her out on the pavement and cuff her in order to 'get control' of her.  I mean, she doesn't look like a bodybuilder, power lifter or track star so I doubt there is much chance she was going to come up out of the car like She Hulk and start tossing officers left and right nor was she going to hit the pavement running like Flo Jo and leave them all in the dust.   So she was attempting to drive away.  Fine - put the car in park, turn off the car and remove the keys from the ignition.  It is kind of hard to operate a vehicle that isn't running when you don't have the keys - especially when (according to the officers, themselves) the car was not drivable, anyhow.   Which brings up another point for those who want to posit that the accident wasn't severe enough to cause injuries.  How can an accident be so severe as to render at least one vehicle immobile but not severe enough to have the potential to cause neck/spine injuries?  That argument doesn't really make much sense, to me.

Here is the thing, your Xbox one does not make you money, and you don't have tax payers to answer to. If they said screw the new arena the people that paid the tax would be up in arms. The people that paid for this don't live in the city of Detroit. The tax was implemented in the outlying areas. Only the CITY of Detroit has money issues. the County and all the other areas around there are perfectly fine and have offered to help but the City council and the residents do not want the "County (non-black)" helping them. I think that the City would have been fine if they would have let the state and surrounding area help them.     Here is an analogy for all of you who like them. You have been saving up to get a better Semi to make more money. Yours is shot and you just lost your job because of it. Do you    A. live off that savings just to keep the lights on or  B. get the new semi and get more money coming back in   one will keep the light on for a while the other will allow you to make money and keep them on longer. I know how I would go.      I am not saying that I am proud of what is happening in Detroit but this is the one thing they have done to try and raise money. When you only have 700,000 residents and I would say 90-95 percent live on Government money it is hard to collect taxes. Most of the tax money Detroit gets comes from the Sports teams and casinos. I would do whatever I could to keep them from moving.

2013 thinking in the startup space goes something like this:   1. Patents are unduly burdensome and expensive for (most) startup ideas.  You're going to want some validation of your product before you go to the (at least) 5-figure expense of getting a patent. 2. Filing for a provisional patent and thus registering your idea is okay if your idea is really unique, but understand that your burning a lot of cycles on this instead of spending those same cycles marketing, selling and validating the usefulness of your product. 3. As soon as you prove there's a viable market, competitors are going to come out of the woodwork with similar products thus likely making your patent worthless anyway.  This sounds dire, but don't kid yourself.  Startups don't have money to litigate patent cases.   As such, execution is what really matters.  As the old saying goes, "An idea is not a mockup.  A mockup is not a prototype. A prototype is not a product. A product is not a business. And, a business is not profits."   Your kickstarter idea is probably the way to go.  Good ideas with functional prototypes that serve a market seem to get funded pretty well these days.

This is on hold for a little bit, guys.  Our supplier bailed out on us at the last minute.  Hopefully once things calm down a little bit, someone will want the business.  We had about 250 lowers spoken for.

  There are always other options, but the job of a cop is to stop the threat as fast as possible.  As said before, I'll be the first to point fingers at the cops for doing dumb stuff, but I just don't see why there's outrage over this, except from the fact that every news agency is showing the same selectively edited video and drumming up an emotional response.

Perhaps if our Govt would quit selling our oil to foreign countries.......

With this glimpse into their mentality and thought process, it's clear why the city is failing.

A college athelete doing something positive and not being a thug.  Just watched a video of Memphis QB Jacob Karam  at St Judes doing a duet with a young patient.  Tried to link it, but am having computer/internet issues tonight.  Maybe someone can help link it up.  Well worth a couple minutes to watch, but it may make your screen a little blurry for a couple minutesafterward.  Especially if you have children.

^^^THIS EXACTLY^^^ I love mine too for all the same reasons. That extra strong double recoil spring is the key to that little design working so well with .45 ACP. Therefore, it is very stiff, so to the OP, have the girlfriend make sure she can lock the slide. I'm not disparaging her upper body strength, just saying it's a really stiff spring and it won't loosen up much like a single spring will. There are more than a few stories on the internet of the gun having light primer strikes too. If you grip the gun aggressively and have a firm stance/wrists from the start, you'll probably never experience this issue. Otherwise, the gun is just simply bad a$$. If you're willing to come to the TWRA range on Hobson pike with a box of ammo, I'd be more than happy to let you both try mine out. I'm there almost every weekend. Just shoot me a PM.

who cares.  this is a distraction to several major problems that we have, i.e.,, irs, nsa, obama care.. do i need to go on.  we need to get back on track and get away from these distractions. 

I still like my DM Bullard.  Worth a look if you want all leather.  Not as thin as a hybrid I guess but again, I wanted something all leather myself.  See my post from long ago for a review.   http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/30355-dm-bullard-dual-carry-holster-fs-mp40/?hl=+bullard%20+m   If you want to test drive mine and you get to Nashville enough to work out a meet, shoot me a PM.

I know there are cheaper options but I still prefer Raven Concealment. I just got my second holster from them for a Glock 22 with tlr-1. I'm amazed how well it conceals even with the weapon light and I'm only 5'10" 165lbs. I daily carry a Glock 19 with tlr-3 in a Raven and love it. Plus you have tons of mounting options and now they have quick ship items you can get in about a week.

I know what you mean. If you were closer I'd be more than happy to let you take it for a test drive.

Yeah, that sounds like a "don't ask don't tell" policy. I like the way our mall in Clarksville posts; it leaves nothing to the imagination for the HCPer. Paraphrase: "Carrying of firearms and other weapons is prohibited unless authorized by state law." Something to that effect. I agree and have always treated it as "don't ask, don't tell" and will in the future. Some lady got randomly stabbed in the parking lot not too long ago. Lol Clarksville. That's silly.

I got the 'assemble yourself' hybrid from Old Faithful during one of their sales, it's pretty comfortable. I wanted a small profile holster and got a Slimline for my FS 9mm from Randy at Crossfire Holsters. I love it. Conceals really well and doesn't take up much space. I ordered a j clip with it and like it better than the loop. Not so great pics

I have a couple IWB's for my M&P's so far i think the most comfortable/easy to conceal is my comptac minotaur.   I have a crossbreed for another pistol that i also find to be at the same level of comfort and concealment.   If your on a budget but are capable of forming kydex yourself the old faithful holster kits are a pretty good buy and usually ship pretty fast.

Great question. Good answers. Everyone has to think through it at some point. Glad you asked. You. You, trained and rehearsed are the best home defense weapon... A firearm that fits your defense plan and training is an invaluable help. Get night sights and a light, period. Light, light, light. No one wants to be the guy that shot his wayward relative/kid/kids' friend because they went "bump" in the night. Can you reliably identify friend/foe with this weapon without your glasses? Shotgun: great stopping power. Semi-auto helps recoil and keeps you from short-pumping in the middle of a gunfight. ...and, you still have to aim at "in home" distances. FYI: 00 buckshot with go through walls as well as most handgun and .223. Handgun: one handed operation, easy to operate in tight spaces, but placing rounds in a man-sized target under combat stress has been shown to be difficult (police stats). Practice at the range under stress. (Push-ups until fail, then a 5 round group?) I wouldn't go under .40S&W, but many do, and will likely be fine. AR: stopping power with the right round (TAP, Barnes TSX55gr) easy platform for optics and lights, good form enables easy shots on target. Easy recoil. But. Harder to maneuver in tight spaces; it has a barrel that a BG can use for leverage if you are late engaging and he is "on you". Of course, if your family is behind you, and the BG is in front of you, you can always shoot him off the end of the barrel. I've heard it works pretty well. Oh .. And an AR will make you deaf"er" than the other two indoors. 16" rifles are loud. Think about how a criminal/crazy/drugthug might access your house and your family. Think about how you can successfully defend your family members against those assaults. (Screw the stuff in your house. Don't get stupid protective of stuff and raise your risk profile. Ensure your families' survival.) Whatever weapon best helps you do that is it. Do you need to open doors and navigate turns or stairs to get to your kids, etc? That might influence you towards a handgun. Do you have one pinch point that leads to access all of your family members? Maybe you rehearse getting all of them out of the probable line(s) of fire (and on the ground), and defend that point (with everyone to your rear and away from the line of fire). That might lend itself to a compact AR. Whatever you get, practice ...safely. When you rehearse, clear your weapon and lock all of your ammo in a separate room and have someone double check you. (**edit:  a chamber flag is a really good idea) Know your lanes of fire - and what is beyond your "target". What are your safe lanes of fire in your house? **How do you identify friend/foe? Family safeword? Etc? http://www.panteaoproductions.com/instructors/massad-ayoob - he has a decent video on HD - some good fodder for thought. Important question? There are lots of smart folks on here.... Looking forward to what others have to say. Edit: ... And if I still owned any weapons at all, I would have changed my HD weapon from a .40 handgun to an 16" AR with a 3x optic (No glasses, still able to do CQB ).. I would also be using Hornady TAP 75gr.

This is always fun.   Handgun:  Glock 22.  15 rounds of awesome .40 cal might with a light. AR:  NO  Too much gun. AK:  NO  Too much gun. Shotgun:  12 gauge pump, 20" barrel or less.  No explanation needed.

  That right there is why when I speed, I speed for real.  I've only had 3 speeding tickets my entire life, but I've always made it easy on the ticketing officer and myself.  I got one 5 years ago during the morning rush heading north on I-65 just north of Harding - absolutely beautiful commute, everybody, all four lanes, running 70+ mph in a 65 zone, no consideration whatsoever for HOV priveleges (stupid as all get out, but that's for another time).  I was running ~82 in the left lane with nothing but wide open space in front of me and got lasered by an unmarked car.  After I pull over, the officer comes to my window as says "What's the legal reason you were going 83 in a 65 mph zone?".  Me:  "Is there one?" :hat:

Can anyone explain why they would put her face-down on hot pavement anyway just for being unresponsive?  Why not just put her in the back of the crusier like I've seen them do to people who were clearly off their meds and hurling every curse word in the book.  She was in a car accident and doesn't look like a professional athlete.  It doesn't take an EMT to think, "Hey, she might be hurt."   While I won't call it abusive, it certainly appears to be uncaring.  Adds to that us vs. them perception that I thought police forces around the nation are trying to repair.  I guess these guys didn't get the memo.

  Big difference between a whole police force of officer friendlies, and having a little common sense. If the womens plates came back as a felony warrant, or violent to officers thats one thing. Treating normal citizens like criminals, as more and more cops do everyday, is not acceptable. Police officers are hated and looked down upon because the majority of LEO interactions lead to this type of attitude. To many times I have seen a police officer drive right by someone with a flat tire, or car problems. No they are not repairmen, but an offer to call someone to help them would go a long ways. If cops wanna be liked, they need to lose the chip on their shoulder, the us vs them attitude, and start punishing those who do stupid stuff. You say a lawsuit would ruin his career? I say the man has no business being an LEO if that is how he conducts himself in that situation. It doesnt matter whether she had worse injuries or not because of their actions. The potential was there. If you discharge a firearm at a person, but miss, should you be turned loose because you didnt hit them and they sustained no injuries?

  I agree that a larger candidate pool would improve the odds. Getting more Andy Griffith's would be great, but he'd get killed in a life-threatening situation. Maybe road cops that write tickets and accident reports need to be more like him and we have some tougher cops for felony arrests and kicking in doors? I don't know what the answer is. I just know that  whole police force full of officer friendlies aren't always enough.      I'm not against monetary punishment for "actual" damages done, I am emphatically against it in this case, however, because no actual damages occurred. It just looks bad on TV and that's not enough to ruin the life of an officer, who may not have ever done anything wrong before now as far as we know, or cripple a whole department's annual budget over.   If this lady's shoulder had been dislocated, spinal injury worsened, skin burnt by asphalt, etc. I'd be right there with. Barring any of those damages, it needs to at least be a learning opportunity, but that's all. We can't throw the baby out with the bath water just because of baggage we bring to the table from what OTHER cops did in OTHER situations.   We don't punish one cop/department for all that wrongs that every cop/department has ever done.

  Good point, sounds like both were doing a good job.  I had rather see an officer on patrol where bad things have been happening than writing tickets if I have to choose one or the other.  That proactive approach won't yield tickets or likely even contact and you can't prove a negative (police were in the neighborhood so there was no crime) but you know that if the thieves and vandals were out that night their night did not go as planned.

I'll echo Moped to a point; I've read both good and bad about the inserts.   Knowing myself the way I do, I'd stand a better than average chance of losing the darn thing just about the time I needed it most. My trusty ol' Savage 24V, however, (.357mag over 20ga.) is the most versatile long gun I've ever owned - between being able to use slugs in the 20 and birdshot (rare, but rather easily made) in the .357, I've effectively got four guns (five if you're into .38sp) in one package that still takes down small enough to fit into a backpack.   ...TS...

see how easy it is to get the facts all f***d up.  But it is ok to judge LEO by what the news said.

If you can, get a scanned copy to me via e-mail.

"It would be better if wilson county minded their own business" sent barefoot from the hills of Tennessee