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The military is out to destroy an enemy. The police are not. The more officers want to dress up and act like the people they interact with are enemy combatants, it should come as no surprise when those people begin acting like enemy combatants. The requirements for justified deadly force should be the exact same for officers as it should any armed person. They are citizens and civilians, not an elite strike force taking out terrorists in Fallujah. What i find concerning is that so many officers and former officers seem to be incapable of considering that perhaps over the last several decades, police culture has played a role in building up to the situation we have today. I certainly don't mean to say any of the officers that have been shot deserved it, but to say that police culture has played absolutely no role in this and that 100% of the blame lies on the public is beyond ridiculous. Forget getting someone to say the officers have ever done anything wrong, we can't even get some folks to concede that maybe there are things they could do better. It's almost like talking to someone that's joined a cult Officers are are taught to take control of a situation. All too often, they attempt to do that by escalating the amount of force used. If armored trucks and more guns are their go to answer here, I think we're going to see a lot of things get worse. The citizens that officers are supposed to protect aren't the enemy. The more we get treated like we are, the more a segment of society is going to act like one. And I do think it's rather telling when folks who have been steeped in police culture decry using any new technology that could hold officers accountable like body cameras, but are eager for new guns, new body armor and military vehicles.

The fact still remains that crazy SOB's are murdering in cold blood police officers in the streets. There is no justification for that at all. Many things are broken in this country and blame starts from the Inciter in Chief down. All of you that seem to be able to predict things and know all the reasons may want to start using your powers to come up with reasonable, safe solutions because this crap happening in the streets is not the answer and does nothing to promote anything but more hate. Stupid people do stupid things.

Not a pilot but I still got a kick out of this one http://tribunist.com/technology/sr-71-blackbird-pilot-trolls-arrogant-fighter-pilot-with-ground-speed-check/?utm_source=MOH

Thanks to the generosity of an anonymous TGOer, we are celebrating Christmas in July. This TGOer is gifting a total of TEN (10) 1-year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. Amazing, right? Very awesome! *** A second generous TGOer has generously contributed thee (3) additional 1- year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. This brings the total to 13. RULES:Must have a minimum 30 posts prior to the creation of this giveaway. ORYou must have a minimum of one positive TGO iTrader feedback prior to the creation of this giveaway. If you have ANY negative feedback, you are not eligible to participate. Current Benefactors are not eligible to participate. If you meet the criteria above, simply post "Merry Christmas" to this thread for your chance to win. Ten (10) random winners will be chosen on Sunday, July 31, 2016. Merry Christmas and good luck to all. ***If anyone would like to add any 6-month, 1-year, or Lifetime Benefactor subscriptions to this giveaway, please let me know.***

Dave, the problem isn't about believing the officer or making silly statements like we think he decided to kill someone for no reason. That is counterproductive. In his mind, I am sure he believed what he said. The issue is whether or not the officer made the right decision in the overall context of the stop. We will never know the full story and camera's would help with that. The only way to improve the SOP's so these events happen less is to fully understand what happened in the moment. Snippets here and there don't help us do that effectively. More information is always better than less. If a cop has an issue wearing a camera, they don't need to be in the profession, simple as that.

Believe me, I wish we still lived in those times. Today's street thug would kill Barney on his first tour. Yesterday's Mayberry is now Methberry or Pilltown. While my grandfather who was once a lawman liked Andy Griffith, he reminded me that the show and town was a fictional place. Today's cop may actually start out as the friendly kid next door but they quickly get seasoned by continuous assaults, lies, and trickery. It is estimated that only 10-20% of the people you make contact with are the good, productive members of society. Society started the us verses them mentality; it wasn't the cops. More than once I got assaulted by the "victim" in a case. More often than not people will tell you one story and then tell you a different story once a case goes to court. Even if you have a statement or a recording they will say they were coerced into stating one thing over another. I have had very nice contacts with people on the street only to get back and find a complaint had been filed against me. I am all for video and audio recordings even though they only tell a part of the story. You often find yourself in a damned if you don't and damned if you do situations, and domestic situations may be the worst. I was always polite and always enjoyed talking to people. Believe me, I enjoyed talking to the normal people. You can quickly forget that there are good people in the world. I knew a lot of the citizens names in my town regardless of whether or not they had continuous calls for service or not. I never held a grudge once someone lied to me, and believe me, everyone lies to the police. I have had my own preacher lie to me before because I was wearing a badge.

What other evidence is available? If the officers had been wearing body cameras and the footage released we might be able to draw a different conclusion. Going off the evidence we have though, it looks like an otherwise innocent man was shot while reaching for his ID per the officer's directions.

I'm not downing anyone's choice of sports but I just can't watch those fights. I never could get into it. I don't see why people would want to do that to their bodies. What a blow.

@adamedwards_5 If you are willing to save up for a bit and go over your ~$200 range, the Aimpoint PRO is about the best overall value you can get these days. Post some pics of it on an AR if you have a chance. I'd be interested in seeing the mount for the SPARC II on an AR. The EoTech is better close in (IMO), because of the outer circle (65 MOA) that helps you get on target faster, and the rectangle window of an EoTech is easier to see from than the circular one in an Aimpoint. Out to 200, I'd call it a draw. Both are good though. More important than anything is the ability of the shooter and willingness to keep in practice.

I whole heartedly agree that culture is to blame for these situations, but on what culture we disagree. When I am pulled over, I don't disrespect the LEO, I don't try and second guess the reason for the stop. In my youth I too had run-ins with, lets say less than stellar, police officers, but that didn't make me out to hate the entire institution. Lately I have seen too many automatically start to argue with an officer even though they, the citizen, was in the wrong. For the most part No, you did not get pulled over because you were black, brown, or white trailer trash; you were either pulled over for a traffic offence, or worse yet because you match the description of someone who committed a crime. When an officer pulls you over for a traffic offence, he may not know that you just committed a robbery, car jacking, or murder and that you will not be taken in alive; He is just doing his job. When you are pulled over, you don't know that he just come off of a robbery where someone that looks like you just murdered the clerk and a couple of customers. You are armed, and in either case it is not smart to mouth off and make the situation worse, or worse yet make sudden movements triggering a response. The culture today is what is making it an us against them climate, and it's not entirely the police officers fault. I do believe that there needs to be a whole lot of changes on both sides to get the situation a bit better; but it will not be the way BLM wants it to be, and definitely not the way the Black Panther Party wants it. The numbers don't lie, it is not about race since whites, blacks and browns get killed when something goes bad during a LEO confrontation, if anything the numbers on the black side seem a bit low to me considering the crime stats. I don't see anyone but BLM and BPP protesting though; and if they were honest about the whole thing they would be protesting in the inner cities against the criminals there instead of Capitol Hill.

Sure. I'm old enough to remember a Mayberry type police force in my small hometown, complete with officers who wore a tie instead of bdu's. You could actually have a conversation with these gentlemen, and knew them by name. People respected them because they earned it. This is a far cry from what one encounters on the street today. I see an us versus them mentality among today's officers that wasn't always present.

I've never worked as a civilian officer, so I can't speak to their experiences. I did work as a 95B Military Policeman in the old days, and there are a few things that the civilians can learn from their military counterparts. Tact, communication and deescalation/escalation of force skills. Many times as an MP we would deal with guys who could out shoot us or beat the hell out of us in seconds. The skills that I mentioned above, especially effective communication, deescalated most situations. Sometimes it seems that civilian cops can't deescalate a situation by talking, but recently, often times it doesn't appear that the level of force used was inappropriate for the threat. I agree with chucktshoes that unless police departments reevaluate and revamp their training to end the perception of being an occupying force in the communities in which they serve, we are only seeing the beginning of the push back.

In response to police use of force, it would do a whole lot for public relations of cops didn't walk around with their hand on the grip of their pistol while still holstered. Walking up on a simple traffic stop, whether it be speeding or running a stop sign or even something simpler than that, they have no reason to have their hand on their gun as well as a stand of fish attitude. They shouldn't be drawing their gun every time the wind changes direction either. They should have the same guidelines as a civilian in regards to drawing their firearm. Immediate threat only. As a civilian, I can't go around pointing my gun at people just because they act threatening or refuse to comply to what I say. I say a large part of the problem is a lot of officers especially the younger ones are ex military and they haven't completely gotten away from the "us vs them" mentality. It's not a war and the civilians are not the enemy. Until this is remedied, I don't see this problem getting any better. If the civilians and police as a whole had a mutual respect for each other, these murderers would have no place to hide.

Postage has been printed, the USPS has been paid, and I am scheduling a pick-up of the boxes as soon as their site lets me do so. This was an interesting experience, for sure. I hope everyone likes their tumblers when they arrive!

Open Carry/2nd Amendment is just the low hanging fruit. I wonder how many other laws and rights they'd like to see curbed. I'm sure we'll see some out of sight, out of mind "free-speech zones" to take care of the 1st Amendment and it's pesky guarantees of free speech and peaceable assembly to petition. They probably wish the 4th Amendment wasn't around either so they could stop, frisk, and check the bags of anyone in and around downtown Cleveland. Of course, it would only be temporary and never extended to full time under the guise of some continuing emergency. Not without some Orwellian sounding name like PATRIOT Act...oh, wait.

Jesus. Flying knee to the forehead.

Have noticed that when in the expanded view, like: Used to be, if you clicked on latest topic on the right, like "Double Standard for Police..", it would go to first unread post, same as if clicking icon to the left of a topic thread inside the individual forum view. But only goes to first post in the thread now. Not a biggie, but I generally peruse whole forum in the above view and often like to click on the latest response from there. - OS

I don't think so. Boats are treated completely differently in TN law. The aren't titled as personal property, but do have to be registered.

Got an email today saying my two are on the way. You might wonder why a damn yankee is buying these. 898 more days till I make my move down there. I promise, no NY attitude is coming down with me.

Ditto. If I'm going to participate in a full contact sport with that much physical interaction I want it to be with a nekkid lady. Some of the fighters are fun to watch though, BJ Pen and George ST Pierre are polar opposite fighters but two of the most intense back when I was watching it socially.

How about a new game. WORKAMON GO then they can all go out looking for jobs

I'll play.... Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas in July! Thanks!!!

Good to see this happen here. It is a great forum!

Don't see the problem. Do it while you're young before you can't.

As a kid we weren't greatly endowed in the money department, but my grandfather had a farm in Blountville. We always had a couple of big gardens in the summer and the grand-kids of a certain age were enlisted in picking, preparing, and canning the bounty. It's how we managed to get through the winter. It wasn't all work. The meals my grandmother fixed were some of the best home cooking ever. And usually the kids managed to have time for an unruly game of tackle football. I've spent the day canning green beans from my garden and I've reminisced to my wife the whole time. So to get to the point of my old man rant, how many others spent their summers in a similar way?

Merry Christmas. Thanks to those who put this together.

Merry Christmas. Very cool to hear.

The "vehicle" part was already in there all along. That was the irony, that the "castle doctrine" covered your car, yet unlike your home, you couldn't legally carry in it without a permit. AFAIK, this was the main argument for opening up carry for everyone in vehicle, to bring it in line with what the statute already claimed to give you. Have also always thought that 39-17-1322 was a partial and wimpy concession of that, such that at least you wouldn't be charged with illegal carry if you had to defend yourself in the vehicle. - OS

It's covered vehicles for 2 or more decades.

If you stop and think about it when an MMA fighter is hurt the fight is stopped. When a boxer is hurt they don't stop the fight until the third standing eight count in the same round. An MMA fighter may take harder hits but the boxers take more. This may all change a few years down the road when the cumulative effects add up on these guys.

Technically Nintendo did it in 21 years. The first pokemon game was released in 1995. Without that, it wouldn't be as popular today. Nostalgia is a strong motivator.

We need to schedule counseling for this individual, they clearly have a problem

Since most everything I've seen for sale that I would buy is in the wrong end of the state, this would cost me a lot of money

Title edited to spell the name of the city correctly.

I'll be making my first trip there

A second generous TGOer has generously contributed thee (3) additional 1- year TGO Benefactor subscriptions. This brings the total 13.

I see no hate here, and no one is condoning murder. Sooner or later, however, if police treat people wrongly enough, people will get tired of it and do something about it. That's what you see happening now. Is the media helping to gin this up? YES Is your president helping to gin this up? YES Do police have some responsibility in ginning this up? ABSOLUTELY Is it going to get worse? I'd think so How do we fix it? I don't have a clue

Odd, this Mericun history thang. The leftists concentrated in the streets of Chicago for the '68 Democratic Convention. - OS

When I shot 45 in competition, to help with faster follow up shots, the 5grn bullseye under a 200grn makes major still and is a soft shooter. I actually load .40 to similar specs, 200 at 850 for 3gun.

I don’t think things need to get worse before they get better. I also don’t think there will be a break down in society. An attack on our Police Officers is an attack on us; I think it will take a minute for most folks to realize that, but then things will change. I don’t know that there is much the Federal government can do other than get Obama to quit giving these criminals some legitimacy. Local governments need simply give their Police Officer the tools to kill the people that are attacking them and stand by their Officers when they are attacked by criminals.

Before the garden started to produce I had intended on purchasing a real nice food processor, a food vacuum sealer and a dehydrator myself. But the way the political climate is and the things that are occurring, I reallocated those funds for a back up AR-15 and some ammunition. Oh well, next year. I did 14 quarts of green beans this morning. Sure is nice to be able to do 14 quarts at a time compared to seven with my old caner. Sure like that American pressure caner I bought. A tad expensive but it will out last me and then my kids.

I'm kinda surprised at some of the responses in this thread. These officers were targeted, simply because they were officers. Like Omega said above, are there bad cops? Certainly. Just like there's bad nurses, lawyers, soldiers, whatever. But for some of you to basically imply that this crap is justified because of some encounter you had with a policeman with little man syndrome, or because of the questionable actions of a few officers blasted all over the media is beyond absurd. Damn shame Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Police officers as a whole, do not respect the populace. Me personally, I will give a police officer the same respect I give any other man. Until he gives me a reason not to. He gets no preferential treatment from me because of a badge.

"They" in this case is the police union. So, it's not the usual crowd trying to tell us that open carry is a public danger. I don't say that to advocate an anti-police position, but I do think that they are susceptible to the "government knows best" mindset. Especially as the local PD are the ones in charge of the outer zones, most likely to see incidents, people will be looking to them if anything bad happens. But still, screw them for thinking there should be an exception to state law. As to it getting done, or not...I'm honestly not sure. One open carry asshat making a scene that gets recorded could change things easily enough. I'm glad Gov. Kasich is holding the line thus far. Laws aren't suggestions or only applicable in the good times. We'll see if it holds through for the entire convention.

Just one more reason I am not an advocate for open carry. I think it's easy to point to multiple reasons why it's a bad idea. I'm also highly certain many places have posted their businesses specifically in response to these people who choose to OC, most of whom I believe do it for attention.

I was an AK guy for a long time. Collected them in pairs by country before they were cool. Which is great because the MAK 90s I paid $250 for now are getting $1k or more and the Arsenals and Veprs are even more ridiculous. Well made AKs are built like tanks and sewing machine reliable(which has a little something to do with the tapered 7.62x39 cartridge). They are also heavy, full of sharp edges and get really flipping hot. The 7.62 x 39 penetrates too much in my opinion for home defense as I have other people in the house to worry about but 5.45 is an option. I also have ARs and love the ergonomics and weight plus the 5.56 is a good round for home defense IMO. All that said, if something goes bump in the night then I am grabbing a Mossberg 590.

If you aren't hunting or competition shooting with it, the S&W M&P 22 Compact is hard to beat, best of its kind IMO. MSRP is $389. I have seen them for $299 new in the gun shop. A bit over budget, but it is hard to find a quality and durable .22 pistol. Or look at a Ruger Mark 2/3 or a Buckmark. Don't be afraid to buy a used one.The ruger will last many lifetimes.